Leica M11 - Two Myths

[Herr Barnack]

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From Leica Australia here is a short video that explores and addresses two issues related to the M11:  Lens selection and minimum shutter speed for hand held shooting.

 

 

 

[SrMi]

It is a well known fact that the minimum handholding shutter speed depends on the photographer.

[Herr Barnack]

Obviously some testing is in order for each M11 (and M10R) user. 

Shutter speed x 3.5 will work for some M11ers while SSx4 will be needed by some.  One size doesn't always fit all.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[Guest]

The concern was - without IBIS - handholding M11 - same (minimum) shutter speed whatever the photographer in question can repeatably support with a M10 and same lens - will the M11 be more likely to produce a blurred image, compared with M10? The answer is: YES.

Shooting the M11 outside of sunny 16 conditions, we are now free to chose between more noise (ISO up) or more blur (with identical min shutter as M10).

I believe this is at the root of the concerns/feedback regarding implications of increased sensor pixel count.

 It is not addressed in Leica's "2 myths" video at all, unless you want to read it as "under good lighting conditions it's not a concern, and we will ignore other situations, or gladly sell you a flash, or a Noctilux, or a SL2."

Edited March 16, 2022 by Guest

[Stevejack]

24 minutes ago, mzbe said:

The concern was - without IBIS - handholding M11 - same (minimum) shutter speed whatever the photographer in question can repeatably support with a M10 and same lens - will the M11 be more likely to produce a blurred image, compared with M10? The answer is: YES.

Shooting the M11 outside of sunny 16 conditions, we are now free to chose between more noise (ISO up) or more blur (with identical min shutter as M10).

I believe this is at the root of the concerns/feedback regarding implications of increased sensor pixel count.

 It is not addressed in Leica's "2 myths" video at all, unless you want to read it as "under good lighting conditions it's not a concern, and we will ignore other situations, or gladly sell you a flash, or a Noctilux, or a SL2."

I feel like ISO performance has kept pace with the megapixel increases well enough that there's simply no reason to choose a stop lower shutter speed at the expense of a stop of ISO if sharpness is a necessity. If you're already at 12,800 and 1/30 sec well you're probably at the limits on the M11 and it's time to problem solve. 

Using IBIS will only give you a sharp result on a still subject, so if you're going to be at 1/15 or 1/30sec using IBIS those concerns still apply. Low ISO and a frozen subject in low light = using flash, on any camera system.    And I know, quantity of light =/= quality of light and a lot of photographers are philosophically against the use of flash, IBIS isn't a solution, it's just another tool and I would argue that improved ISO performance is more important than IBIS in most circumstances if overall sharpness is a priority under existing lighting conditions. 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Stevejack

[Herr Barnack]

Learning to use a flash is a good idea, too.  A setting of -1 to -1.6 EV will stop movement while not making your subjects look like prisoners caught in a search light during a nighttime prison break.

I have also found that in some situations, subject movement can produce a strong image - if you are open to the possibility of creating a more abstract or impressionistic image.  Not every image has to be razor sharp, even when shooting with an M camera and lens.

[Stevejack]

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18 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

I have also found that in some situations, subject movement can produce a strong image - if you are open to the possibility of creating a more abstract or impressionistic image.  Not every image has to be razor sharp, even when shooting with an M camera and lens.

Agreed, and funnily enough my mind doesn't accept that an image was taken in low light unless I see blur in an image. I guess my brain expects that if the lighting conditions are low, a photograph will be taken at a low shutter speed and therefore will show some blur.  Such images 'look' more correct to me, probably because for the majority of photographic history that's how images taken in low light (without a flash) always looked.

It's a little bit like how 24fps cinema looks a lot more 'real' or natural to some people versus a film played at 60fps. We're used to seeing motion blur in scenes where the camera or subject is moving. There's no other reason, other than that's how it's always looked and so that's what the mind expects to see. 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, mzbe said:

The concern was - without IBIS - handholding M11 - same (minimum) shutter speed whatever the photographer in question can repeatably support with a M10 and same lens - will the M11 be more likely to produce a blurred image, compared with M10? The answer is: YES.

Shooting the M11 outside of sunny 16 conditions, we are now free to chose between more noise (ISO up) or more blur (with identical min shutter as M10).

I believe this is at the root of the concerns/feedback regarding implications of increased sensor pixel count.

 It is not addressed in Leica's "2 myths" video at all, unless you want to read it as "under good lighting conditions it's not a concern, and we will ignore other situations, or gladly sell you a flash, or a Noctilux, or a SL2."

The critical point is how much the difference is. According to the theory and practice, it is less than a stop difference between M10 and M11 and less than half-a stop between M10-R and M11. Meh.

In addition, you can shoot M11 at 18MP, which gives you a slower min shutter speed than M10.

Edited March 16, 2022 by SrMi

[Photoworks]

4 hours ago, mzbe said:

The concern was - without IBIS - handholding M11 - same (minimum) shutter speed whatever the photographer in question can repeatably support with a M10 and same lens - will the M11 be more likely to produce a blurred image, compared with M10? The answer is: YES.

Shooting the M11 outside of sunny 16 conditions, we are now free to chose between more noise (ISO up) or more blur (with identical min shutter as M10).

I believe this is at the root of the concerns/feedback regarding implications of increased sensor pixel count.

 It is not addressed in Leica's "2 myths" video at all, unless you want to read it as "under good lighting conditions it's not a concern, and we will ignore other situations, or gladly sell you a flash, or a Noctilux, or a SL2."

DON'T discard the capability of the M11 until you have used it for a bit. You make it sound like the M10 is a better camera, It is not!

I shoot the M11 the same as M10-P or M10-R, no problem of shaken or stirred on M11.

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[Camaro5]

I agree that a lot of it depends on the person holding the camera, and the chart (above) seems about right as a general rule.   I can hand-hold my M10-R a tad slower in low light if necessary.  I'd rather err on the side of higher ISO and faster shutter speed since the camera handles it so well.  You can always fix a little noise in post if you have to.  

[Tailwagger]

A lot also depends on how anal you happen to be as well.  Real world, two shots, same scene, same lens 50mm 'lux,  processed similarly.  On the left ISO 500 1/125", right, ISO 64 1/13".  Yes, faster is unquestionably sharper, but OTOH I don't find the slower version to be unacceptable and we're talking a rather extreme 1/3 focal length.  IMO, 1/F is fine assuming you shoot with a little care. 

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[Herr Barnack]

Quote

A lot also depends on how anal you happen to be as well...

It seems well within reason to say that if you own and shoot with a camera like the M10 Mono, M10R or M11, you are happily afflicted with what could be called L/OCD.

That would be Leica Obsessive Compulsive Dementia.

 

[Tailwagger]

10 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

... you are happily afflicted with what could be called L/OCD.

Who, moi?!?  Why thank you!

[Herr Barnack]

I merely report the facts... 😁

[Tailwagger]

5 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

I merely report the facts... 😁

...but oh so cleverly disguised as opinion.😃

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 3/16/2022 at 12:48 PM, mzbe said:

The concern was - without IBIS - handholding M11 - same (minimum) shutter speed whatever the photographer in question can repeatably support with a M10 and same lens - will the M11 be more likely to produce a blurred image, compared with M10? The answer is: YES.

 

I think the question is wrong. Not the answer.

The question should be: With identical settings and photographer at the same OUTPUT SIZE will the M11 be more likely to produce a blurred image than the M10? The answer is NO.

Let's assume your maximum print from the M10 is 30 inches (200ppi). If you make the same size print from an M11 at 60MP the apparent blur will be the same. You only need better technique if you decide to output LARGER than you would when you had the M10. If you were to enlarge an M10 file to 60MP you'd see a similar level of blur and less detail.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 3/16/2022 at 5:43 PM, Camaro5 said:

I agree that a lot of it depends on the person holding the camera, and the chart (above) seems about right as a general rule.   I can hand-hold my M10-R a tad slower in low light if necessary.  I'd rather err on the side of higher ISO and faster shutter speed since the camera handles it so well.  You can always fix a little noise in post if you have to.  

I often prefer noise over noise reduction. I don't understand the obsession with noise free images. Colour noise is awful but easily fixed. A bit of luminance noise has never made a good photo bad, IMHO.

I'm far more likely to add some noise than remove it. Then again I loved the golf ball grain of TMax pushed to 6400.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Disclaimer: I know Nick Rains. We're not besties or anything but we know each other. He's an excellent educator and a fabulous photographer. I have a lot of respect for him as both a photographer and person.

With that said:

The problem with all these videos is the same. Nick is trying to communicate with a broad audience on a broad subject and do it in 12 minutes or so. Mostly all that happens is a rather large can of worms is opened and the internet gets all in a froth. That's because this is a bigger subject than a 12 minute video can handle and also because, as with all things Leica, we spent a lot on our gear and we like to micro examine, every thing about our gear. So here's my add on to Nick's video.

1. You knew that the M has no IBIS going in. Maybe it'll turn up in a new model but you can't wish it into the M11 and Leica can't do it with a firmware update. So there's little point complaining that it's not there. I like IBIS. I use it all the time on my other cameras. But my M11 doesn't have it and I need to work with that limitation or pick up a different camera. All we can do is find creative ways to get sharp image (or not). If you treat it more like a challenge and less like a chore it's going to be more fun.

2. We need to say whether we're comparing things at an output level or a pixel level. If you make the same size prints there will be the same amount of shake. If you compare at a pixel level more resolution will exagerate poor technique more than a lower pixel count. To properly know where you need to set your camera you need to carefully examine files or prints at the output size you normally work to. Not what the camera does. Definitely not what other people do. Outputting to a 4K screen is a lot less demanding than printing at A1.

3. Videos like these are general information. Unless you are the mathmatical mean you need to use information like this as your starting point not the end point.

4. I wish Nick has mentioned this. We're all different. You need to do your own testing based on your own shooting style and technique. We're not the same. I handhold 60MP at 1/f and print to A1. I know this because I went out and checked. I set my auto ISO to 2xf to be sure, to be sure. I can hold an M10 at 1/2 f and print to A3+. I can hold an M 1 stop slower with a Thumbie attached. These are my limitations. Yours will be yours. Learn them. Accept them. Move on.

4A. When you see someone on the internet telling you that they can handhold the M10R at lower speeds than the M11 that's them, not you. You will be different.

5. You can probably get better than you are now. Practice. Also adding a Thumbie or a grip can add stops to how steady you can hold an M.

6. Grain is good. Nothing wrong with a high ISO. Blur can also be good. Good images do not have to *perfect* Sometimes they're just perfectly boring.

7. You still need to consider subject movement as well as your own.

8. Tripods are fun. But only if you get a good one.

9. Critical sharpness is not as important to anyone else as it is to you. Your family doesn't care. So chill and take photos. Your kids are probably using their iPhone AI to change their faces in to cats! It's not a high bar.......

10. You all know the M11 has variable resolution in camera, right?

Gordon

[Photoworks]

35 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

1. You knew that the M has no IBIS going in. Maybe it'll turn up in a new model but you can't wish it into the M11 and Leica can't do it with a firmware update. So there's little point complaining that it's not there. I like IBIS. I use it all the time on my other cameras. But my M11 doesn't have it and I need to work with that limitation or pick up a different camera. All we can do is find creative ways to get sharp image (or not). If you treat it more like a challenge and less like a chore it's going to be more fun.

hallelujah

 

that is what I have been saying too!

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[Tailwagger]

Not that I wouldn't be happy if the M had IBIS, but I'd far prefer if it sported an AI system that examined the result and offered both immediate feedback as well as instant communication with social media outlets.  

TW: Hmm... interesting scene.  Click.

Camera: That was shit, try again.

TW: Click.

Camera: Nope, again, moron.

TW: Shuffle, shuffle, step, focus, click.

Camera: Strike three.  Sending failure notification to twitter, 'TW is currently in Worcester, Massachusetts proving yet again that he is a suck bag, hack of a photographer. Here's a look at the crap this guy produces. What an idiot."