M4 Problem

[LukaT]

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Hello everyone,

I have recently bought a M4 and it is my first film camera. 

After having developed first few rolls, many of the photos show significant darkening on the top. You can see in the attachment what I mean. These two photos were made seconds between each other with the same settings, so I cant really figure out why one turned out normal and the other has darkening on the top.

If anyone has an idea, I would apretiate it

Thanks,

Luka

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[a.noctilux]

Strange, indeed.

Are there white/lighter bands on the negatives ?

[LukaT]

This is one of the negatives, where you can see the affected area 🤔

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[Ornello]

Probably some kind of light leak. Have it serviced.

[Capuccino-Muffin]

Left / right, it’s shutter.

Top and bottom is the baffle or anything similar protruding. It will reveal itself if you open the back and take out the lens.

 

if it’s extreme wide angle images shit into the sun, it’s simply the baffle making  shadow and its normal

[adan]

There are several possible explanations.

But to me - also counting the purple stains on the TX negative - it could be a problem in the film processing.

Insufficient amount of developer in the tank can leave one edge uncovered and not fully developed (thin neg, dark edge to positive print or scan).

But it could be a shutter problem. The Leica horizontal shutter sets the shutter exposure (above 1/50th sec.) by changing the width of a slit between the first and second shutter curtains. Narrow slit = less exposure, wider slit = more exposure.

Junk on some part of the metal edging of one of the shutter curtains can artificially narrow that slit locally, resulting in a band of underexposure from left to right across the frame.

If the junk is something loose (for example a flap of tape installed as an amateur repair attempt at some point, and now coming loose), then that effect can "come and go" for different pictures as the junk moves around. It will also be more obvious at higher shutter speeds (narrower slit to begin with).

As Capuccino-Muffin perhaps alludes to, the top and bottom of the shutter curtains travel in metal channels. To keep those channels light-tight, they are lined with light-proof baffles, glued in place.

Up until the M6, the baffles were felt (just like the light-proof felt lips of a 35mm film canister). From the M6 on, they are thin flexible plastic strips. Eventually they wear out and need replacing, so an M4 could well have been repaired with M6-style baffles sometime after 1986 (as Leica did for leaky baffles on my M4-2 in 2004).

In any case, if the baffle on the outer side of the channel (towards the lens and light) starts coming loose, it could intermittently flip up in front of the film, causing a shadow across one edge or the other.

(Keep in mind that a lens projects the scene upside-down on the film, so a dark edge across the top of the picture (e.g. sky) indicates a problem at the bottom edge of the camera's film opening or shutter).

[LukaT]

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Thanks for the input, apreciate it

[LocalHero1953]

As a darker area, it is NOT a light leak.

And as it occurs on one photo but not another of the same scene withing a few seconds at the same settings, it seems unlikely to be a 'normal' baffle effect. For the same reason, a developing error seems less likely.

That said, I don't have an answer except to support the suggestion of a something loose near the lower shutter curtain channel. In the first example, the edge of the darker area varies in sharpness, which looks more like a piece of loose 'stuff'.

[Fotoklaus]

The TRi-X looks like that is has not been fixed properly. The Magenta Colour is the protective layer which will be washed out by the fixer.

It stays if not fixed properly or the fixer is loosing it´s power. With fresh fixer the base film should have a light grey tone

So use fresh fixer and rinse properly.

But the other area.. I don´t know...

[LukaT]

This was done in a local lab. But I plan to start developing mysleft sometime soon 🙂

[a.noctilux]

For me, this is "not right processing".

Luka, if you can, while waiting self-processing, use another lab.

 

If it was M4 problem, this would be more "constant" or "on every frame".

[LukaT]

Thanks for all the advices, really helpful 🙏

BTW even though I did only 3-4 rolls by now, this film experience is super fun and refreshing for me. I got hooked on photography about 20 years ago with first digital cameras and after so long time I wish to explore different types of photography.

Thanks again everyone

Edited March 15, 2022 by LukaT

[Huss]

It is not a processing issue, as the very similar pattern happened on two different types of film, and was not on consecutive images.

It is not a light leak, as that would be lighter, not darker.

It is not a shutter issue, as the shutter moves horizontally with vertical slits.

So it is something that is blocking the light path, which as some others have already suggested, implies a loose physical restriction - possibly a piece of baffle.

[earleygallery]

OP you said you have shot a few rolls of film so far - has this problem shown up on all rolls or just one?

If just the one I would suspect a processing fault. If it's on more than one then it's within the camera. It's easy to check the shutter, remove the lens, open the back and set the shutter to B and fire. See anything in the way? Repeat a few times and at some of the slower shutter speeds.

[Huss]

4 hours ago, earleygallery said:

OP you said you have shot a few rolls of film so far - has this problem shown up on all rolls or just one?

If just the one I would suspect a processing fault. If it's on more than one then it's within the camera. It's easy to check the shutter, remove the lens, open the back and set the shutter to B and fire. See anything in the way? Repeat a few times and at some of the slower shutter speeds.

From the images he posted above, it happend on a roll of colour film, and a roll of tri-x

[250swb]

It's pretty amazing for the band to appear so radically between two consecutive shots, the clouds have hardly moved but the band appears then disappears! It would be interesting to see a better picture of the negatives.

[earleygallery]

10 hours ago, Huss said:

From the images he posted above, it happend on a roll of colour film, and a roll of tri-x

Didn't notice that. Odd indeed.

First thing is to look inside the camera for anything obvious affecting the exposure (loose material etc). If nothing, then I'd shoot another roll and try a different lab (although it does seem unlikely to be a processing fault it would at least eliminate that line of thought).

I can't imagine what else it could be.

[LukaT]

15 hours ago, earleygallery said:

OP you said you have shot a few rolls of film so far - has this problem shown up on all rolls or just one?

If just the one I would suspect a processing fault. If it's on more than one then it's within the camera. It's easy to check the shutter, remove the lens, open the back and set the shutter to B and fire. See anything in the way? Repeat a few times and at some of the slower shutter speeds.

It happened on every roll I did, there is no pattern on how it appears. It appears randomly. I was looking at the inside of the camera at B but nothing out ordinary. Next weekend I will try to shoot a 50mm lens and see if the darkening is visable. 

[250swb]

It's not something you are accidentally holding in front of the lens is it? I'm thinking of an ERC case, or a misaligned lens hood, camera strap, etc.

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[LukaT]

No no