dubois pierre Posted February 28, 2022 Share #1 Posted February 28, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi, one of the main changes on the Leica M4-2 is the removal of the self-timer. On this M4-2 you can see a self-timer. This modification was, it seems to me, to use this camera with a motor. Do you know the number list of M4-2 with this modification?. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/330255-leica-m4-2-with-sel-timer/?do=findComment&comment=4392131'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 28, 2022 Posted February 28, 2022 Hi dubois pierre, Take a look here LEICA M4-2 WITH SEL-TIMER. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
luigi bertolotti Posted February 28, 2022 Share #2 Posted February 28, 2022 I think that, in a certain sense, it's the opposite : M4-2 was designed to accept "natively" the electric motor, and the absence of selftimer was standard : yours is probably an item modified to special order, because the M4-2, afaik, was never listed as "with self timer". Is the viewfinder standard, I mean with no 28mm frame ? I ask because 28mm was added in the M4-P and the modification could me made also to M4-2 (and also on classic M4... at least, it was proposed to me by a qualified repairer) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubois pierre Posted February 28, 2022 Author Share #3 Posted February 28, 2022 Thanks Luigi but, On the French Summilux website, it is noted: After the failure of the M5, Leica tried to return to its roots at a lower cost by releasing in 1977 a housing built on the basis of the M4 but designed to be assembled on the assembly line: the M4-2. Although it retained a brass cover and base, steel was introduced in large quantities to reduce manufacturing costs. Similarly, the retarder was removed. However, it is intended to be used with an engine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubois pierre Posted February 28, 2022 Author Share #4 Posted February 28, 2022 http://www.summilux.net/materiel/Leica-M4-2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted February 28, 2022 Share #5 Posted February 28, 2022 Hum... Summilux.net is generally a good source..., but this one looks to me an odd/not to clear sentence... 🙄 - The M4-2 without selftimer CAN work with the motor ; this is sure - Maybe the author means that even if with selftimer, the M4-2 with motor can operate... the original motor (14214) indeed did only advance the film : wasn't able to trigger the shutter... so one could set the selftimer, click the shutter button, motor advanced the film after the delayed shot (an odd way of working... but can be useful in some circumstances...) I have never had motorized Ms... someone else is surely more knowledged on those details... here's a quick review on the various "modern" M winders. https://davidde.com/2020/01/18/the-leica-winder-m-1987-the-motor-winder-m-2000/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted February 28, 2022 Share #6 Posted February 28, 2022 vor 5 Stunden schrieb dubois pierre: After the failure of the M5, Leica tried to return to its roots at a lower cost by releasing in 1977 a housing built on the basis of the M4 but designed to be assembled on the assembly line: the M4-2. Although it retained a brass cover and base, steel was introduced in large quantities to reduce manufacturing costs. Similarly, the retarder was removed. However, it is intended to be used with an engine. No contradiction here. Rather, it confirms what Luigi has pointed out. Retarder was removed, so this means that there is no selftimer with the M4-2 (retarder = seftimer). However, it is intended to be used with an engine. Which means that, unlike the M4, the M4-2 may be used with a motor(drive), engine = motor. Of course, a selftimer could likely be added lateron, if desired. Whether that means that the M4-2 can then no longer be used with a motor, that I do not know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubois pierre Posted February 28, 2022 Author Share #7 Posted February 28, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thanks Luigi and Wizard. "The M4-2 without selftimer CAN work with the motor ; this is sure" Yes of course. Another mystery to solved. *The Leica M4 Mot US Navy had a self-timer with a specific electrical contact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubois pierre Posted February 28, 2022 Author Share #8 Posted February 28, 2022 Leica M4-2 LEICA M4 Mot US Navy Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/330255-leica-m4-2-with-sel-timer/?do=findComment&comment=4392318'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted February 28, 2022 Share #9 Posted February 28, 2022 Yes, THAT motor was a "real" one 🙂; indeed , being M4-2 without electrical coupling, its "motor" had limited usage... at least Leitz, correctly, marked it as "Winder" and not "Motor" 😁 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted February 28, 2022 Share #10 Posted February 28, 2022 Some illustrations Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 3 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/330255-leica-m4-2-with-sel-timer/?do=findComment&comment=4392468'>More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted February 28, 2022 Share #11 Posted February 28, 2022 4 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said: Yes, THAT motor was a "real" one 🙂; indeed , being M4-2 without electrical coupling, its "motor" had limited usage... at least Leitz, correctly, marked it as "Winder" and not "Motor" 😁 Hello Luigi, that is right. Later on Leica Camera changed the naming to Motor-M (14408 ) for 3 frames/second one that I used on my M4-2, triggering as usual with the M's shutter button like this M-A Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/330255-leica-m4-2-with-sel-timer/?do=findComment&comment=4392541'>More sharing options...
sandro Posted February 28, 2022 Share #12 Posted February 28, 2022 According to Laney a military M4-2K is known with self-timer. Lex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 1, 2022 Share #13 Posted March 1, 2022 (edited) My M4-P also uses the M4-2 winder but still no self-timer/retarder. Word of caution: The M4-2 winder has a very powerful motor. You can feel the body of the winder writhing in your hands, when using it. If the buffers are worn, it will make horrible clunking noises. There was a modification published by Andrew Nemeth to quieten the winder. This is no longer available in its original form with pictures but luckily I kept a copy from when it was available and I add this as a PDF below. This motor-winder was designed to use 4 x NiCad rechargeable AA batteries. Modern NiMH batteries which are the same nominal 1.25V when fully charged are just fine. Do not be tempted to use lithium-managanese AA cells. These are 1.7V when new and have very low internal resistance. They will overdrive the motor and the camera will usually lock up, tear the film or in the worst case shear the motor input shaft in the camera. There are NO new spares available, so unless you buy a spares M4 -2 or M4-P camera, with an intact drive shaft, your M4 will become a paperweight. The motor input shaft also forms the axle for the main intermediate gear and locates this gear in the film winding gear train. Wilson M4-2 Leica Winder - adjustment.pdf Edited March 1, 2022 by wlaidlaw 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpattison Posted March 5, 2022 Share #14 Posted March 5, 2022 Thanks, Wilson. Do you know if the later Winder-M (same form as the M4-2 winder) resolved this problem? Thanks, John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 5, 2022 Share #15 Posted March 5, 2022 The problem with the Motor M is similar, as I know to my very considerable cost. I had a number of RCR 123A lithium ion batteries, which I decided I could use in my Motor M. I ended up shearing the motor input shaft on my M7, although at the time I thought it was just the common shutter release lock jamming problem. I sent it to my usual repairer, Alan Starkie but then got caught by Leica's refusal to supply replacement parts to the third party repairers, who have kept us Leica users in working Leica's for the last 50+ years. I tried all over the world to source a replace drive shaft, with no success. Leica would not accept my M7 for repair because it was disassembled. In the end I wrote a begging letter to the CEO of Leica, as a third generation Leica user, in my case for over 60 years and a major Leica collector. Leica finally agreed on an ex-gratia and as a once only exception, to supply the drive shaft to me, which I then passed on to Alan to complete the repair. So the answer is on the Motor-M: Stick to non-rechargeable CR123A lithium manganese and don't use the RCR123A lithium ion rechargeable batteries. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpattison Posted March 7, 2022 Share #16 Posted March 7, 2022 (edited) How about the Winder-M, improved version of the Winder M4-2 ? It had a different battery pack, but otherwise looked like the M4-2 version. I have the instructions, which recommend using "IEC LR6 alkali-manganese AAs, or Ni-Cd rechargeable AAs". John Edited March 7, 2022 by jpattison Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 7, 2022 Share #17 Posted March 7, 2022 Alkali-Manganese batteries are fine as although they have a higher nominal voltage than NiCad or NiMH at around 1.5V, they also have quite high internal resistance, so that the actual voltage on feeding a high demand item like a film winding motor, drops to around 1.35 to 1.4 V. The lithium manganese batteries not only have a higher nominal voltage at just over 1.7V, they have lower internal resistance than the alkaline variety, so the voltage does not drop as much from the nominal. On some Leica devices, like the SF24 flash, there is an over-voltage protection circuit. If you put in RCR123A lithium ion batteries in place of the CR123A lithium manganese ones, the flash will not work at all. The RCR start out at around 3.8-3.9V when fully charged, against 3.3V for a new CR battery. Wilson 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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