Leica APS-C -- No more!

[Kim Dahl]

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I'm really scared of the Leica SL so it's going to be next.  Maybe not right now.  I can assure you that Sales of Leica SL in this country are not very large.

[IkarusJohn]

Well, if I sold my TL2 and the two TL lenses I have, I’d then be looking for a small(ish) camera, compatible with my M lenses and with a nice wide zoom.  I suspect a secondhand TL2 and a couple of secondhand lenses could well fit the bill …

I hold no fears for my SL(601) - it does exactly what I need and looks like it will keep doing it for a long time - we’ll see.  I’m sure that Leica will come up with some option when (if) they do die.

In the mean time, my M system is going well.  There are no electronics in my lenses and I am confident that Leica will continue to service them if needed.  The digital M cameras I have will probably cease to function and not be reparable at some point before I shuffle off this mortal coil, but my M-A won’t.  Not sure I see myself buying another M camera - the M11 seems to be heading in a direction that doesn’t suit my needs.  If I win the lottery, I might buy a 75 Noctilux, a 35 APO Summicron and a Super-Elmarit-R 15/2.8 if I can find one.  I might even buy one of their fabulous watches.

But, otherwise, I don’t see myself buying any more equipment from Leica.  But I wish them well - it’s a tough world, making cameras, and they do a good job.  Far more interesting to me than Canon, Nikon, Fuji or Sony.

[nicci78]

Actually I don’t care anymore. I left the boat. Whatever happens now does not matters to me. 
Good luck Leica. 

[Le Chef]

2 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Consumers need to fully understand that continued production requires sales volume ... too low sales volume = unsustainable £€$losses

Consumers do not need to know the mechanics of running the company - they just need to be offered good, differentiated and competitively priced products. And Leica needs to learn how to do that to generate sales volume through the effective positioning of product, marketing and communication. Something they clearly need a great deal of help with. To fail with the X, the T/TL/TL2 and the CL would get you very poor marks in the world of business and certainly ousted from the company you worked for. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Le Chef

[Louis]

SL2 is a great camera according to the users. But even pre-owned, they are still way too expensive comparing to CL/TL cameras. The price of used original SL is quite reasonable, but with old sensor and low MP. It becomes even lower for those who wish to use it with TL lenses!

Personally, I don’t really care about the size or the weight; or even,  the camera itself.

M bodies and M lenses are way too expensive to start building a new system; and not a cup of tea for those, including myself, who need an AF camera.

Q is an attractive camera, although not cheep, but the 28mm lens is not for me at all, and I am not interested in the sensor crop. .

I was told that Leica is working on a FF smaller-than- SL camera with L mount! !!… I am not sure what kind of camera it would be, and if it is not going to kill the SL system?…  It won’t be for tomorrow, either!

At this point, my only option is to keep enjoying my CL till it can still work.   

Wetzlar is putting many of us in a very difficult situation. All I know, trust for Leica has been vanished for many of us!

 

[Rusty]

6 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Consumers need to fully understand that continued production requires sales volume ... too low sales volume = unsustainable £€$losses

Exactly. I predict my CL and 3 lens (2 Sigma) will still be working fine in 10 years time. By then I'm probably looking at the Leica/Apple phone with 5 pinpoint sharp lens built in from wide to short tele and computational processing delivering full frame image quality. Who knows.

[Mr.Prime]

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I don’t expect they will prosper without some industry partnerships, but perhaps they can survive for some time yet by focussing on a smaller core range of products that defines a niche they can defend.

 

A CL-M, a CL camera with M-mount designed to give a lower cost platform to M-mount lenses would be an interesting product. There are enough AF competitors already, and other AF Leica products, but M-mount is still special. They should not make the mistake of believing this would eat too much of M11 sales either, as they are very different concepts. 

[Le Chef]

20 minutes ago, Mr.Prime said:

I don’t expect they will prosper without some industry partnerships, but perhaps they can survive for some time yet by focussing on a smaller core range of products that defines a niche they can defend.

 

A CL-M, a CL camera with M-mount designed to give a lower cost platform to M-mount lenses would be an interesting product. There are enough AF competitors already, and other AF Leica products, but M-mount is still special. They should not make the mistake of believing this would eat too much of M11 sales either, as they are very different concepts. 

If they’re smart they can do a “Source of business” analysis. It’s pretty much standard practice in business.

[lct]

28 minutes ago, Mr.Prime said:

A CL-M, a CL camera with M-mount designed to give a lower cost platform to M-mount lenses would be an interesting product.

Déjà vu in the seventies with the film CL. Lasted 3 years if memory serves. Now Pixii seems to occupy the niche.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Mr.Prime said:

A CL-M, a CL camera with M-mount designed to give a lower cost platform to M-mount lenses would be an interesting product. There are enough AF competitors already, and other AF Leica products, but M-mount is still special. They should not make the mistake of believing this would eat too much of M11 sales either, as they are very different concepts. 

That's how many owners (including me) already used their CL. My M-adapter was permanently attached to the CL and I don't have any L-mount lenses. Despite all of this, there obviously was not enough demand for such a camera.

[lct]

3 minutes ago, Studienkamera said:

That's how many owners (including me) already used their CL. My M-adapter was permanently attached to the CL and I don't have any L-mount lenses. Despite all of this, there obviously was not enough demand for such a camera.

Yes despite or because of this. The Leica adapter alone is more expensive than a Fuji 35/2 lens. 

[nicci78]

I think that ultimately Leica Camera will shrink considerably to only Q and M line up. 
I don’t think that L-mount will survived. It is already a failure for Sigma and Panasonic. 

Every manufacturers are downsizing fast. 
 

Leica should have released QL three years ago, instead of SL2. L-mount would have been a success. 
Now it is too late. Especially with a shrinking market. 

[Simone_DF]

12 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Consumers need to fully understand that continued production requires sales volume ... too low sales volume = unsustainable £€$losses

And companies need to fully understand that sometimes you have to accept a loss to sustain the rest of your products. Because once a customer leaves for good, it won't come back.

Have you seen Google? They keep shutting down service after service, hardware after hardware. It is so bad that it has now become a self fulfilling prophecy, aka people are not buying into new Google products because they are afraid Google will kill it. Which equal to low sales / usage which subsequently triggers EOL for product. That's exactly what happened with Google Stadia, a gaming console launched in November 2019 that it's already as good as discontinued, because gamers were either not interested or afraid of Google killing it after a year of two. Which is what ultimately happened.

Here's the full list, that's a whopping 264 products

https://killedbygoogle.com

Leica is seriously risking the same effect. Who would invest thousand of euros in a camera system knowing the X, CL, TL etc have been axed? 

[Viv]

12 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Oh yes, the clio ad. 

 

Leica prefers to alienate faithful customers by pushing them upmarket. 
Sadly, full frame SL means humongous bodies and lenses. Nothing comparable with CL and TL lenses. 
 

Leica needs to understand that price is not the problem. CL owners choose the APS-C for the blend of excellent image in a tiny package. 

Agreed. Porsche also tried to push customers up market in recent years. I wonder how many customers they ost as a result.

[Simone_DF]

21 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

I don’t think that L-mount will survived. It is already a failure for Sigma and Panasonic. 

Too early to tell. It's a brand new mount with no past, it's hard to carve a niche from scratch in a market filled by other brands. It's true Panasonic was expecting more, but 3-5% on first shot is not too shabby, it's a shame they shoot themselves in the foot with that crappy first gen autofocus, or they'd be in a even better position. We'll see with the second generation.

I feel Nikon is in a way worse situation. With Nikon your only option is to buy the excellent, but expensive Nikon lenses. With L mount, you can choose between the 3 partners your best option based on your needs.

For a brand new customer looking to buy his first full frame camera, the L mount looks a better proposition over a Nikon.

[nicci78]

At least Nikon has a Z9 to show of 

Panasonic ?? Nothing to rave about. 

[nicci78]

3 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Leica is seriously risking the same effect. Who would invest thousand of euros in a camera system knowing the X, CL, TL etc have been axed? 

Leica also axed DMR for R8/R9 then the whole R system. 
S system is also in life support : no new lens for ages. At least they still got kinda new body (same body actually with newer sensor) 

 

So in less than 10 years, Leica graveyard is getting fuller and fuller : DMR, R, X, TL and now CL. S is a zombie line up. 
What’s left ? M, Q and SL (for now) 

Fun facts : Leica tried to kill M line in the 70’s. 
They never really understood their customers. 
Sadly this time no Canadians to save the party. 

[LocalHero1953]

39 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Leica also axed DMR for R8/R9 then the whole R system. 
S system is also in life support : no new lens for ages. At least they still got kinda new body (same body actually with newer sensor) 

 

So in less than 10 years, Leica graveyard is getting fuller and fuller : DMR, R, X, TL and now CL. S is a zombie line up. 
What’s left ? M, Q and SL (for now) 

Fun facts : Leica tried to kill M line in the 70’s. 
They never really understood their customers. 
Sadly this time no Canadians to save the party. 

So sorry to hear that all your Leicas have suddenly stopped working, and you can no longer take any photos.
I can read the extreme distress in your post.

Edited April 6, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[Viv]

48 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

So sorry to hear that all your Leicas have suddenly stopped working, and you can no longer take any photos.
I can read the extreme distress in your post.

I am very very fortunate. My Leica CL still works perfectly. It seems that my camera is the exception to the rule ...

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[ramarren]

26 minutes ago, Viv said:

I am very very fortunate. My Leica CL still works perfectly. It seems that my camera is the exception to the rule ...

Same here. So does my M4-2. So did the Leicaflex SL and R6.2 I recently sold to a friend. Out shooting with the CL two days ago, I marveled once more at how excellent a camera this is.

G