Leica APS-C -- No more!

[nicci78]

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56 minutes ago, lct said:

The Sigma fp is a FF camera, not APS, and it sells for $1,500 yet. So why would Sigma bother with a €1,380 APS-C camera. Makes little sense to me sorry. 

Sigma fp in France is available at 1900€ right now. 
1380€ is a high estimated price for a potential APS-C fp based on fp L price. 
If I took fp price APS-C variant can be as low as 1140€. According to Thom Hogan estimated price. 
 

Really no matter what. APS-C and m4/3 will always be significantly cheaper than full frame. 
 

Then keep in mind that Leica will happily sell camera at 2.5 to 3.5x higher than Sigma can. You’ll soon realised that an APS-C Leica camera will always be cheaper than a full frame one. 
 

Just take the SL2-S price 4800€ today. Imagine a CL2 using the same tech (IBIS, 5.6M EVF, weathersealing, etc… ) with 26MP APS-C sensor. It could be sold at 2880€. A very interesting discount in my opinion.
Leica will round it at 3000€  
It is still less than half the price of SL2.  
Many people would be interested. 
But we’ll never know. 
 

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[frame-it]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Easy for you but not for me i fear. Any hint as to where to look for?

well?

[lct]

20 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Sigma fp in France is available at 1900€ right now. 
1380€ is a high estimated price for a potential APS-C fp based on fp L price. 

$1,499 at Adorama and Amazon (links below). Sigma knows what to do better than me (us?) anyway. Both fp and fpL are full frame cameras. 
https://www.adorama.com/sgfp.html
https://www.amazon.com/Sigma-Mirrorless-Full-Frame-Digital-Camera/dp/B07YV8R6B1

[tritentrue]

On 5/31/2022 at 10:38 PM, Le Chef said:

This is one of those “Merger of Equals” type of press release with zero substance or focus to it. We don’t know where L2 will focus its activities in terms of formats. We don’t know who will lead new model development, or whether L2 will put a ring fence around certain parts of the market and create integrated development teams to bring new products to market.

Based on Leica’s recent record on communication one can only presume that Panasonic wrote this one.

Rumor among a couple of dealers in these parts is that Panasonic is about to exit the m43 market, with some concrete circumstances giving weight to the rumor.  Since they've made no announcement about their intention, one might assume that Leica is already sharing their "marketing strategy" with Panasonic. 😉

[Simone_DF]

19 hours ago, lct said:

$1,499 at Adorama and Amazon (links below). Sigma knows what to do better than me (us?) anyway. Both fp and fpL are full frame cameras. 
https://www.adorama.com/sgfp.html
https://www.amazon.com/Sigma-Mirrorless-Full-Frame-Digital-Camera/dp/B07YV8R6B1

That's the price with a 21% instant rebate. Regular price: 1899$

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I can see the camera sold at 1800€ / 1900€ at various European dealers. 

Also to note is that the FP is indeed full frame, but it's a modular camera and it lacks certain basics elements like an EVF/OVF, IBIS etc., that drives the price down compared to, for example, the new Fuji, whose price is higher at 2500€.

[jaapv]

20 hours ago, tritentrue said:

Rumor among a couple of dealers in these parts is that Panasonic is about to exit the m43 market, with some concrete circumstances giving weight to the rumor.  Since they've made no announcement about their intention, one might assume that Leica is already sharing their "marketing strategy" with Panasonic. 😉

That rumour has been flying for at least a year. It is hard to imagine abandoning their highly successful line of video-oriented M43 cameras.  

[northernlights]

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2 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

That's the price with a 21% instant rebate. Regular price: 1899$

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I can see the camera sold at 1800€ / 1900€ at various European dealers. 

Also to note is that the FP is indeed full frame, but it's a modular camera and it lacks certain basics elements like an EVF/OVF, IBIS etc., that drives the price down compared to, for example, the new Fuji, whose price is higher at 2500€.

One of the main down points - electronic shutter only. 

[Simone_DF]

21 hours ago, tritentrue said:

Rumor among a couple of dealers in these parts is that Panasonic is about to exit the m43 market, with some concrete circumstances giving weight to the rumor.  Since they've made no announcement about their intention, one might assume that Leica is already sharing their "marketing strategy" with Panasonic. 😉

A new Pana/Leica lens has just been released for the m4/3. Why bother releasing a new lens for a dying format? 

[frame-it]

9 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

A new Pana/Leica lens has just been released for the m4/3. Why bother releasing a new lens for a dying format? 

tried the GH6 today, AF is blazing fast

[frame-it]

On 6/2/2022 at 5:53 PM, nicci78 said:

Nice so M11 Monochrom is ready 😌

interesting interview, he does mention how they use customer feedback to make changes to features etc

 

[dkCambridgeshire]

1 hour ago, northernlights said:

One of the main down points - electronic shutter only. 

Yes ... not practical for city night time photography ... artificial light potential 'banding' 

[Simone_DF]

42 minutes ago, frame-it said:

interesting interview, he does mention how they use customer feedback to make changes to features etc

Right, must be the reason why the SL2 and the SL lenses are so small and light.

[BernardC]

On 6/2/2022 at 7:47 AM, nicci78 said:

Just take the SL2-S price 4800€ today. Imagine a CL2 using the same tech (IBIS, 5.6M EVF, weathersealing, etc… ) with 26MP APS-C sensor. It could be sold at 2880€. A very interesting discount in my opinion.
Leica will round it at 3000€  
It is still less than half the price of SL2.  
Many people would be interested. 

I'm not sure that I get your point. Leica isn't a low-cost supplier, they aren't competing for shelf space at Best Buy or FNAC. Should they make a low-cost camera? That's what Rollei tried with their Singapore cameras, remember how that worked-out?

The CL and TL weren't very successful, especially when compared to the Q and SL. People liked the APS-C cameras, but complained that they wanted full-frame.

My best guess is that we'll see a small full-frame L-Mount body similar to the Q soon. It may undercut the SL2-S in price, but don't be surprised if it doesn't. Leica knows what price will maximize their profit and long-term viability.

 

Also, I don't know your sources, but last time I checked there were more L-Mount lenses available for sale than either RF or Z.

[nicci78]

My point is that the 2000-2500€ price point for a real made in Wetzlar Leica camera has just disappeared !! 

Now it’s 4800 € minimum for a huge SL2-S or 5390€ for a Q2 a fixed lens… 

So if you want a small Leica made in Germany : it is M11 at 8300€ or nothing (and it is not really compact) 

if you don’t want to spent 4800€ you have to choose fake Leica/real Lumix made in China but sold at 50% premium V-Lux C-Lux D-Lux at 1250€ 
 

let’s be clear I will never buy a Panasonic Leica 

[nicci78]

Leica will never be able to make a 2500-3000€ full frame camera 

No APS-C = no more entry level (all is relative)

[lct]

Sounds like negativity has become a common language in this thread. At the launch of the SL in 2015, very few people, including in this very forum, were complaining about size. I seem to recall that i was one of them since i bought my compact Sony A7s1 few after the SL launch. In the Leitz tradition, reflex bodies were the same large size in the seventies, and so was the only serious competitor then the Zeiss Contarex. Thanks to Minolta, R bodies have become smaller from the R4 to the R7 but R8 and R9 bodies were again bulky an complaints about size were rare at that era if memory serves me well. The Real Leica Man was supposed to be strong enough to carry one (or two?) R9 bodies with DMR digital back together with an Apo-Telyt 280/4. Things have changed since 2015 apparently, now it seems that more people are after compact bodies. Only question is if compact size has become a matter to prioritize according to Stefan Daniel's wording quoted below. 

« If we launch a new product we get feedback on what they (customers) like or dislike, what should be kept and what should be improved but we have also to prioritize because few customers maybe have a certain wish we cannot fulfill because there is only very few demand for that and there are wishes almost everybody has and then this has to be kind of prioritized at higher »

[lct]

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Edited June 3, 2022 by lct

[nicci78]

https://petapixel.com/2022/05/31/smartphone-cameras-will-be-superior-to-slrs-by-2024-says-sony-ceo/
 

😳 ok Forget Leica and any full frame. Just buy iPhone 16 in 2024 and call it a day. Mirrorless won’t be able to compete. Don’t forget to sell all your lenses first. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[jaapv]

You overlook the obvious flaw in the argument. It assumes that smartphones will progess and ILCs will remain stagnant. Rather unlikely. On top of that, ever tried to take a photograph that requires a 600 mm lens with a smartphone? 

[BernardC]

5 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Leica will never be able to make a 2500-3000€ full frame camera 

No APS-C = no more entry level (all is relative)

OK, I get it.

Panasonic and Sigma are Leica's entry level now. That's one of the advantages of the alliance. You can get into the system with an S5 kit, which isn't more expensive than a Canon/Nikon/Sony kit, and work your way up as life progresses.

Of course, we would all like it if Leica sold inexpensive cameras, while maintaining quality, but that's not going to happen.