Leica APS-C -- No more!

[lct]

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8 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

At what price should Leica sell the SL line? Because even though the price of the SL2/SL2s is high, it's 1-2 generations behind, look at the Canon R5 or the Z9 or any other flagship model from other mirrorless brands.

And the Q? I can get a Ricoh GRIII for less than 1000€, or a Fuji X100V for about 1500€. (and indeed I sold my Q2 long time ago and got a GRIII!)

People that buy Leica don't buy it for the price, because it's always been a bad bargain. People buy Leica for other reasons.

SLs and Q cameras are full frame. You could have quoted the M11 as well. Can work in crop mode the same way as SLs and Q cameras. Problem solved. Well, to be honest, should be solved if the SL bodies were not that bulky. Leica will bring a more compact solution hopefully.

[nicci78]

1 hour ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Likely also depends on the quantities ordered or made by the camera manufacturer .... no 'one price fits all' ... and Leica production is relatively small 

Price won’t change much. APS-C will be way cheaper to Leica than full frame sensor. No matter what. After all there are essentially only two sensors manufacturers left : Sony and Canon (the latter do not sell sensors to anybody else yet) 

[Simone_DF]

35 minutes ago, lct said:

SLs and Q cameras are full frame. You could have quoted the M11 as well. Can work in crop mode the same way as SLs and Q cameras. Problem solved. Well, to be honest, should be solved if the SL bodies were not that bulky. Leica will bring a more compact solution hopefully.

The M line is unique, because it's a rangefinder. There's no replacement for that. That's also the reason why Leica can price it the same as a kidney.

The Q, even though it's full frame, is still 6x the price of a Ricoh and 4x the price of a X100V. Is the Q2 4x better than the X100V? Having used both cameras, I can tell you it's not, in my opinion. In fact, apart from the sensor size, everything else is better, specs wise, on the Fuji. So how is Leica selling these underspecced cameras at a higher price to its audience?

Still waiting to hear the expected price of a SL3, given that the R5 is about 4000€ and is years beyond the current generation SL lines.

[nicci78]

Q2 is objectively superior to X100V : 

• 24x36mm sensor vs APS-C
• 47MP vs 26MP
• Bayer vs X-Trans
• 28mm vs 35mm
• f/1.7 vs f/2
• OIS vs nothing
• fully weathersealed vs partially (need a filter adapter to achieve it)
• 3.6M dot EVF vs hybrid viewfinder
• fixed screen vs tilted
• easy manual focusing vs convoluted
• etc...

It is quite normal that Q2 command a higher price tag. 3.6x higher to by exact or 3890€ more.

Summilux-Q 28mm is certainly way more expensive to manufacture. 47MP is at least 5x more costly. etc...

Let's say that Q2 with 35mm 30MP crop mode can replicate X100V photos, but the contrary is not possible at all. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by nicci78

[lct]

8 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

The M line is unique, because it's a rangefinder. There's no replacement for that. That's also the reason why Leica can price it the same as a kidney.

The Q, even though it's full frame, is still 6x the price of a Ricoh and 4x the price of a X100V. Is the Q2 4x better than the X100V? Having used both cameras, I can tell you it's not, in my opinion. In fact, apart from the sensor size, everything else is better, specs wise, on the Fuji. [...]

Not sure what you are trying to demonstrate. That Leica can compete with Fuji on the APS-C market? Never happened obviously and will never happen. So why bother frankly?

[nicci78]

actually Leica Q2 price is quite competitive at 5390€ while including an excellent lens. This is high MP counts price (without lens) :

• Leica M11 = 8350€
• Leica SL2 = 6500€ 
• Canon R5 = 4500€
• Sony A7R IV = 4000€
• Lumix S1R = 3700€
• Nikon Z7 II = 3550€
• Sigma fp L (with EVF) = 2800€ (removing shutter mechanism is a very effective way to lower price. Look at Nikon Z9)

Full frame with high MP counts is very expensive. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by nicci78

[Simone_DF]

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2 hours ago, lct said:

Not sure what you are trying to demonstrate. That Leica can compete with Fuji on the APS-C market? Never happened obviously and will never happen. So why bother frankly?

That Leica cannot compete in ANY market, nor they wish to, and therefore your point is moot. The only market that they dominate is the rangefinders market, because they are alone. 

[lct]

6 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

That Leica cannot compete in ANY market, nor they wish to, and therefore your point is moot. The only market that they dominate is the rangefinders market, because they are alone. 

Who cares about dominating? Look at the my Leica and Fuji gear below. CL + 35/2 vs X-E2 + 35/2. Same size and performance more or less. Last time i checked the Leica combo was 5 or 6 times more expensive than the Fuji. So what? CL is the better for M lenses and X-E2 is or was the better for compact AF 35/2. Nowadays the X-E2 would be replaced by the X-E4 i guess but it would still cost 3 times less than the CL. Pick the one you prefer, pick nothing or get both but if money is a concern better recall what JP Morgan used to say .

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Foxtwo]

On 5/27/2022 at 7:55 PM, Louis said:

Rob, I am more than grateful to the LUF Amin for his effort of providing us generously a very useful site. But unfortunately, his efforts that I am sure are not easy, are being destroyed by some users and those who pretend to run forums. I have been trying to be helpful as I could but of course, this is only the Internet and as another friend mentioned above, not about world peace! But I am, like you, interested in photography, and it makes me sad to see a fine photography website becoming such a mess!

You mean I shouldn't post that your contact at Leica told me that they are getting out of the camera business and will morph into an optics and luxury watch vendor?

[jdlaing]

11 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Price won’t change much. APS-C will be way cheaper to Leica than full frame sensor. No matter what. After all there are essentially only two sensors manufacturers left : Sony and Canon (the latter do not sell sensors to anybody else yet) 

You are so misinformed and full of doom gloom and negativity.

Current sensor manufacturers include Samsung, Omnivision, On Semi, Sharp, STMicroelectronics, GalaxyCore, SK Hynix, Panasonic as well as Sony and Canon. Half the stuff you spout is baseless conjecture.

 

[lct]

 

12 hours ago, nicci78 said:

• Sigma fp L (with EVF) = 2800€ (removing shutter mechanism is a very effective way to lower price. Look at Nikon Z9)

Full frame with high MP counts is very expensive.

Not sure to follow you here. The Sigma fp L has a 61mp sensor and sells for $2500. Why bothering with APS-C if compact FF cameras can be used in crop mode? The future is there and criticizing Leica for not investing in APS-C appears ill informed from this view point.

https://www.adorama.com/sgfpl.html

[nicci78]

Sigma fp L sans EVF is 2300€ because it lacks mechanical shutter. 
Sigma remove it too soon. You need a stack sensor at least. 
Nikon Z9 undercut the competition at a very very competitive price due the removal of shutter motor !!  
 

With 26MP APS-C sensor, Sigma should be able to sell a fp APS-C at only 1380€ or less ! Quite cheaper than fp L. 
Why paying a fortune for a big sensor when you are throwing away the part that cost the most. 
 

If 24x36 were only 2.25x the price of APS-C. It can make sense to ditch APS-C. But it is at least 5x the cost. Hence a huge difference when a sensor represents half the cost of a full frame camera. 
 

For semiconductors manufacturing costs is directly related to size. Usually they tried thinner and thinner engraving. Making chips smaller. Which higher the yield and reduce consumption. 
Whereas there is no way to make a full frame sensor as cheap as APS-C. It is impossible due to the nature of semiconductors manufacturing. It can exponentially more expensive the bigger the sensor get. Because yield is way lower. One defect and you have to bin the sensor. 

Edited June 2, 2022 by nicci78

[nicci78]

8 hours ago, jdlaing said:

You are so misinformed and full of doom gloom and negativity.

Current sensor manufacturers include Samsung, Omnivision, On Semi, Sharp, STMicroelectronics, GalaxyCore, SK Hynix, Panasonic as well as Sony and Canon. Half the stuff you spout is baseless conjecture.

 

Check your own sources first. 
 

None of them makes APS-C nor Full frame sensors for photo use. 

Only smaller ones for smartphones or CCTV cameras. 
If they made bigger sensor it is for industrial use with very specific specs. Or made for motion pictures industry. 
 

By the way Panasonic stopped making sensors years ago, since they sold their activity to TowerJazz and another Taiwanese company. And TowerJazz has been bought by Intel recently. 
 

If you look at the industry right now : 

Nikon, Fujifilm, Sony, Ricoh, Pentax, Leica APS-C are all made by Sony Semi for at least 10 years.  

Canon made its own APS-C and full frame sensor. 
 

 Olympus m4/3 sensors are made by Sony semi since Sony saved Olympus from bankruptcy. 
 

Panasonic uses a mix of m4/3 and 24x36 sensors made by either Sony semi or TowerJazz. But mostly Sony’s. 

 

So I still stand that there is no other choice in photo industry now than buying from Sony Semi. 

After all Leica is using Sony’s 24MP BSI for SL2-S and 60MP BSI for M11. 

You want BSI ? Sony 

You want stacked ? Sony or Canon. 
 

Edited June 2, 2022 by nicci78

[frame-it]

55 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Leica is using Sony’s 24MP BSI for SL2-S and 60MP BSI for M11. 

yes, the M11 sensor is the IMX455 series AQK variant, made by Sony

FPS (Sensors): 21.33 fps Manufacturer: Sony Pixel Size (Sensors): 3.76µm Resolution (Sensors): 61.17M Scan/Series: STARVIS Shutter (Sensors): Rolling Signal (Sensors): RGB And there is also an ALK variant that's Monochrome! FPS (Sensors):     21.33 fps Manufacturer:     Sony Pixel Size (Sensors):     3.76µm Resolution (Sensors):     61.17M Scan/Series:     STARVIS Shutter (Sensors):     Rolling Signal (Sensors):     Monochrome

[nicci78]

Nice so M11 Monochrom is ready 😌

[nicci78]

We should be glad. Sony semi sensors are awesome from iPhone 13 Pro to PhaseOne 645 sizes. 
Leica will save a lot of R&D by using of the shelves Sony sensors and by sharing its ressources with Lumix. 
Perfect for a time when cameras sales are getting smaller each year. 

Edited June 2, 2022 by nicci78

[lct]

1 hour ago, frame-it said:

the M11 sensor is the IMX455 series AQK variant, made by Sony

Any link about this? Just curious.

[frame-it]

10 minutes ago, lct said:

Any link about this? Just curious.

do a bit of research you can find it easily in the public domain,

i don't think i can post the sensor pic directly here, but hey, i found it in online, freely visible to all.

[lct]

3 hours ago, nicci78 said:

With 26MP APS-C sensor, Sigma should be able to sell a fp APS-C at only 1380€ or less ! Quite cheaper than fp L. 

The Sigma fp is a FF camera, not APS, and it sells for $1,500 yet. So why would Sigma bother with a €1,380 APS-C camera. Makes little sense to me sorry. 

Edited June 2, 2022 by lct

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[lct]

12 minutes ago, frame-it said:

do a bit of research you can find it easily in the public domain,

i don't think i can post the sensor pic directly here, but hey, i found it in online, freely visible to all.

Easy for you but not for me i fear. Any hint as to where to look for?