Leica APS-C -- No more!

[nicci78]

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38 minutes ago, Tuempel86 said:

I wouldn't say that. Just today came the following commitment to the L Mount.

Bla bla bla. So boring. Much ado about nothing. They are selling dreams like no other. Just kidding. It is badly presented. 
We’ll see what that means ? 
My guess ? Future SL will be clones of Panasonic S… because within L2 everything will be shared. 
Hope you liked D-Lux, V-Lux and C-Lux. More will come. 

NB : looks like Sigma is distancing itself away from the L-mount alliance. 
Sigma is now deeply in love with Fujifilm for more… APS-C lenses. What their joint videos. 
 

Swan song for L-mount ? They started 3 and only 2 left. And now they’ll share everything to lower R&D costs. Does two turkeys make an eagle ? 

Edited May 31, 2022 by nicci78

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[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

After TL/CL debacle I won’t invest any cent into L-mount alliance. 
I am pretty sure that it will vanish sooner than later. 
Sales are extremely poor due to many factors : too huge and too heavy bodies (SL2, S1), very high prices (SL2), no Phase Detect (everybody), experimental bodies (fp), Foveon looks like vaporware, lens selection is very poor and pale against younger RF and Z mounts. 
 

I see absolutely no incentive to buy into L-mount instead of excellent RF, Z or FE bodies. They are already mature, have awesome phase detect AF, support both APS-C and FF, wide lens selection (with or without adapter), wide variety of bodies catering most needs. 

I disagree, the bodies have been redesigned and the S5 sold reasonably well, I guess this is where Panasonic is headed with the S5II or S6 or whatever they'll call it.

As for lens selection, I think the L mount has the best range of lenses, second only to Sony. You can buy Leica, Sigma or Panasonic lenses, all have their strenght, and you can mix and match. Canon and Nikon have no third party option available, that's a big big limiting factor imho. I wouldn't buy a Canon to adapt older DSLR lenses, which, by the way, you can also do on L mount, not to mention that Sigma has their older lineup available in native mount too.

Take Nikon Z lenses. Do you want a workhorse zoom? The 24-70 is 2000€. On L mount you have 2 options to choose from, Panasonic and Sigma, both cheaper, + a rebadged one if you really really want that red dot to show off + an even cheaper 28-70 at less than half the price of the Nikon. The same goes for pretty much all other lenses in their lineup.

The only limiting factor on the L mount is the lack of phase detect, which is indeed absurd and puts L mount autofocus performance way behind the competition. 

[nicci78]

Check again. Lumix S sales are very very low. Without S5 sell better, but it is still nothing to rave about. Panasonic is still the last vendors of mirrorless, behind everyone. Way behind OM system.
Even accounting their m4/3 line up. Just imagine how low is Lumix S…

Sigma dare publicly threaten the alliance, due to poor sales ! 
 

Looking how desperate the Lumix director looks like. I won’t be surprised if Leica generate more revenue than Lumix. Making the German the driver of the L2 joint venture. 
Panasonic kind of lose control of they R&D. Letting Wetzlar has a direct say into everything. 
Quite different to the previous era where Leica can only pick and choose among the Japanese technologies. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by nicci78

[lct]

Leica did cooperate tightly with other camera brands in the past. My favorite SLR has long been my R4s which was basically a Minolta camera with Leitz improvements and this cooperation worked fine from the R4 to the R7.  

[Le Chef]

This is one of those “Merger of Equals” type of press release with zero substance or focus to it. We don’t know where L2 will focus its activities in terms of formats. We don’t know who will lead new model development, or whether L2 will put a ring fence around certain parts of the market and create integrated development teams to bring new products to market.

Based on Leica’s recent record on communication one can only presume that Panasonic wrote this one.

[Boojay]

30 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

This is one of those “Merger of Equals” type of press release with zero substance or focus to it. We don’t know where L2 will focus its activities in terms of formats. We don’t know who will lead new model development, or whether L2 will put a ring fence around certain parts of the market and create integrated development teams to bring new products to market.

Based on Leica’s recent record on communication one can only presume that Panasonic wrote this one.

Yes, seemed like a lot of noise about nothing...  cooperating to collaborating, ok, big news.

 

 

[lct]

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51 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

Based on Leica’s recent record on communication one can only presume that Panasonic wrote this one.

On a German music I would say

 .

[Simone_DF]

10 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Check again. Lumix S sales are very very low. Without S5 sell better, but it is still nothing to rave about. Panasonic is still the last vendors of mirrorless, behind everyone. Way behind OM system.

The sales are low, especially because of the terrible idea to create humongous body and lenses, but do you realize the L mount is a brand new mount that popped out of nowhere? I'd say it did ok for a first gen body series. It's very hard to convince people invested in Sony or Canon to drop their gear and switch to a new mount with no history. Panasonic was not expecting to magically get more sales than Nikon Z.

I'm not sure what you mean with Sigma publicly threaten the alliance, I haven't seen anything like it. Do you have a link? If you mean their commitment to Fuji lenses, that's nothing new. Sigma has always developed lenses for other brands. Should Nikon or Canon open their standards, we'll definitely see Sigma porting their lenses over there too.

[Simone_DF]

Meanwhile, while apparently there's no market for expensive aps-c, the new Fuji was just released, at 2500€. Maybe Fuji execs didn't read this forum.

https://petapixel.com/2022/05/31/fujifilm-launches-the-x-h2s-26-16mp-40-fps-burst-photos-6-2k-video/

[elambo]

15 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Meanwhile, while apparently there's no market for expensive aps-c, the new Fuji was just released, at 2500€. Maybe Fuji execs didn't read this forum.

https://petapixel.com/2022/05/31/fujifilm-launches-the-x-h2s-26-16mp-40-fps-burst-photos-6-2k-video/

Haha!

[frame-it]

4 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Meanwhile, while apparently there's no market for expensive aps-c, the new Fuji was just released, at 2500€. Maybe Fuji execs didn't read this forum.

https://petapixel.com/2022/05/31/fujifilm-launches-the-x-h2s-26-16mp-40-fps-burst-photos-6-2k-video/

and......the xh2-H model is apparently APS-C 40MP

 

[Mr.Prime]

And “electronic viewfinder on the X-H2S is a 5.76-million dot panel” gets my attention. 

[Daniel kk]

On 2/22/2022 at 11:41 AM, Le Chef said:

As I’ve said before here, I don’t expect that Stefan Daniels has the balls to make a public announcement about this. He might also consider how to inform owners about the line of TL lenses - how do they get repaired in future? What commitment will Leica make to maintaining a parts inventory for the CL/TTL/TL2 in the future?

On a second point Leica’s real market entry, as opposed to a PanaLeica, will from now on be the $5k+ Leica Q2. This is significantly poor product and market planning, akin to a suicide move. You can only attract buyers who have already built a relationship with brands like Canon, Fuji, Nikon, and Sony to a point where they have lens collections and a familiarity with that brand’s UI, so will be disincentivized to buy into Leica.

Leica is turning into a classic business school case study into how not to run a successful company with a significant brand heritage.

I agree with your point of view. Leica have wasted too much financial resources to develop some product line in the past years. Essential improvement and enhancement should be concentrated on M and SL series in future.

[IkarusJohn]

20 hours ago, nicci78 said:

... I see absolutely no incentive to buy into L-mount instead of excellent RF, Z or FE bodies. They are already mature, have awesome phase detect AF, support both APS-C and FF, wide lens selection (with or without adapter), wide variety of bodies catering most needs ... 

Oh, I see lots of reasons - fantastic SL lenses, compatibility with M and R lenses, and Leica's uncomplicated approach to the user interface.  With my SL, I cover 21mm to 360mm (well beyond the limit of easy handholding, which for me is 180mm comfortably).  Even the best AF I've tried has left me frustrated - I just prefer manual focusing, even with the SL (I back focus).

What else was the problem?  Sales?  You've been claiming poor sales and predicting the death of the L mount for some time.  Even if you're right, both my TL2 and SL are very robust, and I expect will work for quite some time yet.  Continuity will only be an issue when they can no longer be repaired.  By then, Leica will have something else to take my lenses.

[nicci78]

5 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Oh, I see lots of reasons - fantastic SL lenses, compatibility with M and R lenses, and Leica's uncomplicated approach to the user interface.  With my SL, I cover 21mm to 360mm (well beyond the limit of easy handholding, which for me is 180mm comfortably).  Even the best AF I've tried has left me frustrated - I just prefer manual focusing, even with the SL (I back focus).

What else was the problem?  Sales?  You've been claiming poor sales and predicting the death of the L mount for some time.  Even if you're right, both my TL2 and SL are very robust, and I expect will work for quite some time yet.  Continuity will only be an issue when they can no longer be repaired.  By then, Leica will have something else to take my lenses.

Isn't low sales that led Leica to abandoned M system once (after M5 debacle), then R system (No AF, lost of their digital partner Imacon for Digital-Modul-R) and now TL/CL system. 

Sales is everything for a company. Leica has never been smart enough :

• Stopping M system at one time. Saved by ELCAN hopefully. Imagine Leica today without M ?
• Let Hasselblad steal Imacon right under their nose. Leading to the demise of R system, due to lack of digital future
• Cutting one of the L-mount leg : APS-C

I am not predicting L-Mount death. I was a supporter. But looking at how bad Leica management is with abandoning APS-C ; how poorly Lumix S performed ; Sigma failure to deliver Foveon. And now Sigma seems to sideways from L-Mount alliance reduced to only two active members inside L2 technology (L squared, what a stupid name for internet : a mess for google search) 

Let's face it, L-mount is a walking dead mount. By the way @Simone_DF It was one of the two first full frame mirrorless mount with Sony FE mount. It is not young at all (2015) But L-mount is now completely overtaken by way younger RF and Z mounts. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by nicci78

[nicci78]

12 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Meanwhile, while apparently there's no market for expensive aps-c, the new Fuji was just released, at 2500€. Maybe Fuji execs didn't read this forum.

https://petapixel.com/2022/05/31/fujifilm-launches-the-x-h2s-26-16mp-40-fps-burst-photos-6-2k-video/

According to Thom Hogan : APS-C sensor is only 1/5th & m4/3 is only 1/8th the cost of a full frame sensor using the very same technology. 

And sensor is about half the cost of a camera !!

Hence APS-C and m4/3 are here to stay. Look at this price list of 20-26MP BSI CMOS Stacked sensor cameras : 

• 24MP Sony A9 II = 5400€
• 24MP Canon R3 = 5999€
• 26MP Fujifilm X-H2S = 2749€
• 20MP (80MP permanently binned) OM Digital System OM-1 = 2199€

There is quite a price gap between full frame and smaller sensors. For the same pixel count. 

 

Smaller sensor makes cameras and lenses cheaper, lighter and smaller.

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by nicci78

[nicci78]

5 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Oh, I see lots of reasons - fantastic SL lenses, compatibility with M and R lenses, and Leica's uncomplicated approach to the user interface.  With my SL, I cover 21mm to 360mm (well beyond the limit of easy handholding, which for me is 180mm comfortably).  Even the best AF I've tried has left me frustrated - I just prefer manual focusing, even with the SL (I back focus).

I don't see fantastic SL lenses nor Lumix S optics. Only humongous ones. Especially next to way smaller but as competent Sony G Master series. 

Like Sigma did for its DSLR Art series, it is easy to make excellent but huge lenses. But very hard to make very good and small ones. Sadly Leica got lazy and choose the easy path of huge optics. Quite a disappointment. 

Really take a look at Sony GM lenses. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by nicci78

[lct]

6 hours ago, Daniel kk said:

I agree with your point of view. Leica have wasted too much financial resources to develop some product line in the past years. Essential improvement and enhancement should be concentrated on M and SL series in future.

And Q cameras let alone PanaLeicas. At what price could Leica compete with the new Fuji? As much as i like my digital CL, quitting the APS-C market appears indeed like the only reasonable solution. The next L-mount Leica will be more compact than the current SLs hopefully.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[dkCambridgeshire]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

According to Thom Hogan : APS-C sensor is only 1/5th & m4/3 is only 1/8th the cost of a full frame sensor using the very same technology. 

And sensor is about half the cost of a camera !!

Hence APS-C and m4/3 are here to stay. Look at this price list of 20-26MP BSI CMOS Stacked sensor cameras : 

• 24MP Sony A9 II = 5400€
• 24MP Canon R3 = 5999€
• 26MP Fujifilm X-H2S = 2749€
• 20MP (80MP permanently binned) OM Digital System OM-1 = 2199€

There is quite a price gap between full frame and smaller sensors. For the same pixel count. 

 

Smaller sensor makes cameras and lenses cheaper, lighter and smaller.

 

Likely also depends on the quantities ordered or made by the camera manufacturer .... no 'one price fits all' ... and Leica production is relatively small 

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, lct said:

And Q cameras let alone PanaLeicas. At what price could Leica compete with the new Fuji? As much as i like my digital CL, quitting the APS-C market appears indeed like the only reasonable solution. The next L-mount Leica will be more compact than the current SLs hopefully.

At what price should Leica sell the SL line? Because even though the price of the SL2/SL2s is high, it's 1-2 generations behind, look at the Canon R5 or the Z9 or any other flagship model from other mirrorless brands.

And the Q? I can get a Ricoh GRIII for less than 1000€, or a Fuji X100V for about 1500€. (and indeed I sold my Q2 long time ago and got a GRIII!)

People that buy Leica don't buy it for the price, because it's always been a bad bargain. People buy Leica for other reasons.