Leica APS-C -- No more!

[IkarusJohn]

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I doubt Leica is open to discuss its strategic decisions.

When the R system was discontinued, Leica promised a replacement platform for the discontinued R lenses (some quite recently released).  It took them years to offer first the M(240) with an adapter, then the T and the SL.  Prices of R lenses dived, then climbed back up in fits and starts.

With the TL2 and CL, I doubt we will see such a commitment.  When (if) Leica announces the end of its APS-C cameras, we will get little more tha the suggestion that we use the SL cameras with our TL lenses.

As to announcements, Leica hasn’t announced the end of many of its cameras.  As I recall, the R system was the only instance where Leica made a significant announcement.  When products are discontinued in most markets, they just fade away, lost in the announcement of new products.

Edited May 18, 2022 by IkarusJohn

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[lct]

41 minutes ago, Enrique Santa said:

Nobody of us  pretends that Leica continues a non productive line

Are you sure?

[Enrique Santa]

16 minutes ago, lct said:

Are you sure?

You have an extrange fixation with me my friend¡. 

Please inform me only one of my post that I have told that Leica must continue with it's apsc line 🤑

Edited May 18, 2022 by Enrique Santa
Correction

[lct]

26 minutes ago, Enrique Santa said:

You have an extrange fixation with me my friend¡. 

Please inform me only one of my post that I have told that Leica must continue with it's apsc line 🤑

You said "nobody of us" remember? You will become a traitor to the APS-C cause if things continue like this . Just kidding but tell me if I'm abusing .

[Enrique Santa]

46 minutes ago, lct said:

You said "nobody of us" remember? You will become a traitor to the APS-C cause if things continue like this . Just kidding but tell me if I'm abusing .

No you are just kidding, no problem at all. I have always thought that apsc is the equilibrium point between size and IQ and honestly I don't need more and I don't want a big and heavy cam or lenses. For me at least is a pitty that Leica let fall this format. I thought that it will be my last system and now I feel really lazy to begin with a new one . 

I have seen that you have several M's and lenses and only a CL with the 18mm , so for you is not a real problem if Leica abandon apsc. I usually only have one cam and one system for my hobby and the truth is that I thought that I was investing in an excellent system with future and now that future is gone. But as I said I feel terrible lazy to sell all my Leica things and begin with a new system that will be bigger in size an probably worst in IQ. So lets enjoy what I have until it last.

[Guest]

About a year ago, Leica Shop Vienna (which is at least partly owned by Leica) had a big sale of TL lenses. I thought at that time that this may be an indication of the imminent discontinuation of the system. Now they have a big sale of S lenses...

[Louis]

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5 minutes ago, Studienkamera said:

About a year ago, Leica Shop Vienna (which is at least partly owned by Leica) had a big sale of TL lenses. I thought at that time that this may be an indication of the imminent discontinuation of the system. Now they have a big sale of S lenses...

Now, even Amazon is selling Leica! lol

[lct]

1 hour ago, Louis said:

Now, even Amazon is selling Leica! lol

Amazon is selling much more expensive things actually.

[tritentrue]

The same Leica employee who told me over a year ago that there would be no CL-2 also told me that Leica will make no lens longer than 280mm.  Now, seeing definitive evidence that Leica has killed off the CL line, coupled with the sight of cufflinks, water bottles, coffee cups, and other overpriced junk in their store windows, leaves me wondering how much longer they will bother with producing cameras of any kind.

Years ago, they gave up autofocus; now it seems they've totally lost all focus.

[Louis]

I guess the Leica stores will soon be transformed to souvenir shops. I wonder if anyone would trust to buy even souvenirs from any ex-leica store! 😂
BTW, not everyone agreed in ending APSC line at Leica, but those who were for the discontinuation won at the end! ☹️

Edited May 19, 2022 by Louis

[dkCambridgeshire]

32 minutes ago, tritentrue said:

The same Leica employee who told me over a year ago that there would be no CL-2 also told me that Leica will make no lens longer than 280mm.  Now, seeing definitive evidence that Leica has killed off the CL line, coupled with the sight of cufflinks, water bottles, coffee cups, and other overpriced junk in their store windows, leaves me wondering how much longer they will bother with producing cameras of any kind.

Years ago, they gave up autofocus; now it seems they've totally lost all focus.

What's the point of making a Leica lens of focal length greater than 280mm if it will not sell in sufficent numbers to justify the design / development / production costs? One reason why the Leica / Panasonic / Sigma 'L-Mount Alliance' exists is for Leica's partners to manufacture the lenses not on Leica Camera AG's radar e.g. the Sigma 'L-Mount' 150-600mm ... together with dedicated extenders. 

And as for 'lost all focus' ... that's a total and unjustified exaggeration . 

[Kim Dahl]

20 hours ago, Studienkamera said:

About a year ago, Leica Shop Vienna (which is at least partly owned by Leica) had a big sale of TL lenses. I thought at that time that this may be an indication of the imminent discontinuation of the system. Now they have a big sale of S lenses...

When I go to their website I see both S and TL at high prices?  what is the internet address you are referring to?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Kim Dahl said:

When I go to their website I see both S and TL at high prices?  what is the internet address you are referring to?

PM sent

[nicci78]

Leica executives are being mislead. 

APS-C is dead or dying. Really ? APS-C & m4/3 represented 88% of volume and 75% of revenue in 2021 according to CIPA. How on earth it is dying ? 

Leica is leaving the battlefield at the moment where the war in small format is beginning.

• Ricoh Pentax with K-3 III & GR IIIx launched in 2021. Both excellent, especially the GR. 
• OM System launched their "professional" OM-1 praised by reviewers
• Panasonic Lumix released their GH6. The king of video. 
• Fujifilm will announced soon two experts APS-C : X-H2 & X-H2s
• Pixii has renewed its APS-C rangefinder with the new Pixii which sports a 26MP sensor
• Canon will announce next week its flagship APS-C the R7 and an entry level R10
• Sony has 3 APS-C bodies in the work
• Nikon will wait until 2023 to replace its excellent D500 in a mirrorless format. 

Is it really dying ? Not at all. None of them are cheap APS-C, they are as expensive as full frame can be. Saying that small formats have to cheap is totally false.

People choose small formats for the size of their optics. Image quality is already excellent at m4/3 level.

Almost nobody need more than 20MP. And don't forget Leica own words : Q2's 7MP at 75mm crop is enough !!! So why bother ? 

Obviously nobody want to buy almost 5 years old bodies at launch prices. If Leica would have made CL2 it would have sell well enough. But I guess that we'll never know. Because Leica decided to forfeit. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by nicci78

[Cobram]

On 5/17/2022 at 4:39 PM, wlaidlaw said:

And before that when they ran out of replacement circuit cards (rather fragile) for the M6TTL. There are loads of shops in Guangzhou which specialise in cloning old circuit cards for industrial systems, where the original chips (usually pretty simplistic) and cards are no longer available. For such a simple card as the M6TTL, it would have been child's play for them to make new ones, especially if the  original specs were disclosed. Just needed a bit of get up and go. I recall suggesting this to a director of Leica over 15 years ago and it met with blank incomprehension (Not Invented Here). 

Wilson

I'm quite sure it is not so easy. It is interesting that in Europe everyone assumes making things is very very easy. In fact producing even a very simple product at high quality levels requires knowledge and experience. Basic technical/technological knowledge in EU is quite low (not talking about engineering but technicians etc.) due to outsourcing mania, lack of workers... and now reflecting in high prices of very simple products for example steel rolls. 

My coment is not related to APS-C topic... I know 🙂

About users with TL lenses. I really understand you are angry/sad and I sympathize with you. I had similar feelings regarding M9 sensor issue... The only advise I can give you is: decide if you really appreciate enough "Leica look" and lenses to invest in future Leica products. I decided that for me, the Leica colors are the best in class so I invested in M10 camera.

The sooner the better.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Cobram

[tritentrue]

23 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

What's the point of making a Leica lens of focal length greater than 280mm if it will not sell in sufficent numbers to justify the design / development / production costs? One reason why the Leica / Panasonic / Sigma 'L-Mount Alliance' exists is for Leica's partners to manufacture the lenses not on Leica Camera AG's radar e.g. the Sigma 'L-Mount' 150-600mm ... together with dedicated extenders. 

And as for 'lost all focus' ... that's a total and unjustified exaggeration . 

That darned forest is tough to see, isn't it? 😜

[lct]

Armchair CEO. Definition. People advising Leica to launch things impossible to sell at Leica prices. Just kidding but not that much. What's the point in trying to sell a CL2 twice (or thrice?) as expensive as the APS-C competition? And now we're discussing about 280mm and longer Leica lenses... The last 280/4 Leica R was 1.5x as expensive as an M body (5,200 EUR in 2006). As for the SL 90-280 it sells for more than 6,000 EUR currently. Superb lenses of course but how many CL owners would buy them? Come down to earth folks. 

[Mr.Prime]

We have all these lovely M lenses and if Leica isn’t going to give us an affordable camera to use them with there are lots of others who will. Especially with an ageing population who want high quality EVFs.  We just need Leica to stay in business, making great lenses. We can buy the bodies from many other players.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Mr.Prime

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[tom0511]

I agree with 3 points posted before:

1) It is sad (if) Leica gets out of dx, and its specially sad for people who bought TL lenses for a lot of money; for now the CL works fine, but one day it will be old technology

2) I also agree that I do not think cell-phones and DX is in direct competition. Many people use cell phones for photography, and some use cameras, because they want different focal length, a viewfinder, shallow DOF and another experience.

3) I fully agree Leica should communicate more with customers; They should give us roadmaps for lenses and cameras to expect. Closing down three lines of products over the last years (R,CL/TL, S???(hopefully not)) is not great. I dont expect discussion of their strategy, but information for customers what to expect.

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by tom0511

[Simone_DF]

20 hours ago, lct said:

What's the point in trying to sell a CL2 twice (or thrice?) as expensive as the APS-C competition?

We could replace the line above with: What's the point in trying to sell a mirrorless twice (or thrice?) as expensive as the competition?

And kill everything that is not a M or a Q in Leica's lineup.

And we probably should kill even the Q, since the Ricoh GRIII is about 900€ and the Fuji X100V 1500€