Leica APS-C -- No more!

[dkCambridgeshire]

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56 minutes ago, lct said:

The tiny Sigma FPL has a 60mp sensors allowing for 25mp in crop mode. I have no experience with it though.

Check the limitations of the FPL's electronic shutter before committing to purchase https://uk.pcmag.com/cameras/133509/sigma-fp-l

... it's not suitable for all types of stills photography 

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[lct]

22 minutes ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Check the limitations of the FPL's electronic shutter before committing to purchase https://uk.pcmag.com/cameras/133509/sigma-fp-l

... it's not suitable for all types of stills photography 

Thanks for warning but most of my pics are shot in e-shutter mode currently so it's not a serious concern for me.

[nicci78]

8 hours ago, MJB said:

I don't think anyone is expecting a CL to be pocketable in the way that a GR-series camera is. But the GR is a fixed-lens camera with no EVF - it's a totally different beast. I could see the GR as a secondary camera or back-up to the CL, but without an EVF I'm frankly not interested. Shooting without one feels too much like shooting with a smartphone to me.

"No EVF, no way, It's like an iPhone." That's exactly what I thought. And I was wrong. 

First : GR III or IIIx screen is way brighter than CL or Q2 ones. That's make the Ricoh more usable during a sunny day. With the Leica you'll have to reach for EVF due to the screen being impossible to read. It is also a question of habits, first week I tried so many times to raise the GR to my eye... By the way the GR screen is as bright as iPhone 12 Pro at max brightness. So it is more than ok. 

Second : physical controls make the GR III way better than an iPhone. Really no comparison. A smartphone is cumbersome, you have to swipe up, down, left or right. Tap here, open a drawer to change settings... It is a mess, I hate that. And there is no way to change exposure settings easily (it has to be in full auto) 

Third : ergonomics are perfect for its size. GR has a smaller footprint than iPhone 12 mini (except thickness of course) Handling is perfect with its grip. Try to hold a phone as a camera for more than a few minutes. It is impossible : no grip, huge size, no physical buttons. No proper shutter release like the pill shaped from Ricoh (very clever design). 

One is made to take photos all day. The other to browse the web or whatever. 

PS : my GR don't have stupid notification and no unwanted phone call  

Yes GR is quite expensive, but at least you buy it once and never think to update your iPhone for the next one just for photos... Ultimately Ricoh is way cheaper.

[LocalHero1953]

I had the Ricoh GRDiv for a while. Even though it was smaller than APS-C it was a great camera and took great pictures, and included good ideas, such as snap focus. In the end, though, I wanted a viewfinder and a lens choice beyond just 28mm equivalent.

I replaced the Ricoh with the TL2+18mm. Then I replaced the TL2 with the CL.

I have always been on the hunt for a truly pocketable and versatile camera. I have never found The One - a smartphone remains my best pocketable.

Edited April 16, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[Guest]

I replaced my Ricoh GR with a Leica CL and never looked back. Not a bad camera at all, the GR, just not for me. 

[wlaidlaw]

I had the Ricoh GX200 as a pocket digital camera. It was fine in bright light but its low light performance was very poor. It was noisier than my wife's contemporary V-Lux. 

Wilson

[nicci78]

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GX200 was a 2010 camera, it certainly has nothing in common with GR III (the first GR using both Ricoh and Pentax core technologies) 

Same for GR Digital IV being a 2011 compact. A lot happens in Ricoh world between 2011 and 2019 (GR III released date). Ricoh buying Pentax is certainly a very interesting move.  

 

[LocalHero1953]

33 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Same for GR Digital IV being a 2011 compact. A lot happens in Ricoh world between 2011 and 2019 (GR III released date). Ricoh buying Pentax is certainly a very interesting move.  

A lot has happened.....but the GRiii still does not have an EVF and interchangeable lenses - the main reasons I sold, and why I would not buy now. 

[mike_j]

CL is outdated in many ways but will go on working within its limits for many years. The lens will perform adequately in crop mode on larger sensors. Nothing lasts for ever. Leica also discontinued my Leica lll and M8 but both still working.

Just wish that I hadn't changed my Sony A6500 for it. Just the lure of the Leica name. 

[MJB]

14 hours ago, nicci78 said:

"No EVF, no way, It's like an iPhone." That's exactly what I thought. And I was wrong. 

First : GR III or IIIx screen is way brighter than CL or Q2 ones. That's make the Ricoh more usable during a sunny day. With the Leica you'll have to reach for EVF due to the screen being impossible to read. It is also a question of habits, first week I tried so many times to raise the GR to my eye... By the way the GR screen is as bright as iPhone 12 Pro at max brightness. So it is more than ok. 

Second : physical controls make the GR III way better than an iPhone. Really no comparison. A smartphone is cumbersome, you have to swipe up, down, left or right. Tap here, open a drawer to change settings... It is a mess, I hate that. And there is no way to change exposure settings easily (it has to be in full auto) 

Third : ergonomics are perfect for its size. GR has a smaller footprint than iPhone 12 mini (except thickness of course) Handling is perfect with its grip. Try to hold a phone as a camera for more than a few minutes. It is impossible : no grip, huge size, no physical buttons. No proper shutter release like the pill shaped from Ricoh (very clever design). 

One is made to take photos all day. The other to browse the web or whatever. 

PS : my GR don't have stupid notification and no unwanted phone call  

Yes GR is quite expensive, but at least you buy it once and never think to update your iPhone for the next one just for photos... Ultimately Ricoh is way cheaper.

Trust me, I get the appeal of stuffing an APS-C sensor into a truly pocketable body, but for me the ergonomics will never be right without a viewfinder. I want to have the camera pressed up against my face, squat down for low shots, etc. I want to use the LCD for menu navigation and basically nothing else - a touch screen is nice here (I love the initial quick menu on the CL that trickled down from the Q and M, for example) - but I have no need nor desire for a tilting, articulated screen. I briefly owned both a Fujifilm X70 and XF10, and although they were capable of some great images and the controls were generally well-laid out, at the end of the day I don't enjoy working through an LCD screen at arm's length. My current point-and-shoot is a Leica C (Typ 112), and even with the small, low-res EVF, it is much more fun to use than the Fujis were. I've thought about an RX100 (probably VA) as a solution, but I seem to come across a lot of comments from people who tried the camera and ditched it because it felt too appliance-like.

[nicci78]

3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

A lot has happened.....but the GRiii still does not have an EVF and interchangeable lenses - the main reasons I sold, and why I would not buy now. 

It is a really compact camera. 
It won’t have them. 
 

Actually I am using GR III and IIIx as a system camera of  4 lenses : 21mm 28mm 40mm and 75mm with the help of GW-4 and GT-2 converters. They work brilliantly and it is really easy to mount them. No need to worry about dust too. Because they are converters put upon the main lens. 
 

About the EVF ? With the latest firmware, Ricoh introduced the Snap priority mode, which is pure genius : you can preset your depth of field and your distance. Just like hyperfocal shooting with M lenses. 
You can either change the distance and depth of field on the fly. 
With this mode, EVF is less useful, you can choose an OVF which will stay visible under the sun. Something that no EVF can do. 

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[IkarusJohn]

The TL2, with the 28 Summaron gives a 42mm field of view, or 35 Summilux pre-asph gives 52mm, and is easily pocketable (depending on the pocket - usually, it’s either the back pocket on my cycling jersey or a jacket pocket).  Perfect.  And if I want wider, I have an 11-23mm zoom, not pocketable, but no decent lens in that range is.  And, I have the option of an EVF which is tiltable.  Nice.

Never tried a Ricoh or Fuji - never felt the need.  As I’m happy with what I have, I feel no desire to explore other options.  The 24MP IQ from the TL2 is excellent; lenses fabulous.  No need for firmware updates.  No need to upgrade.  By the time mine dies, there will be something else, as the need for a good small camera will still be there.  My money will be on an excellent Leitz ‘n’ phone with a fabulous camera, if there’s no TL lens option (other than my SL).

Meanwhile, I hope my SL will still be working, and my love affair with my M system will be going strong.  What’’s not to like!

[Le Chef]

8 hours ago, mike_j said:

The lens will perform adequately in crop mode on larger sensors.

Is Leica a company that supposedly embraces “adequate”?

[mike_j]

14 hours ago, MJB said:

 but I have no need nor desire for a tilting, articulated screen. 

You wait till age and arthritis get you. Lact of tilt screen and no stabilisation really spoil my enjoyment of using the CL

[MJB]

21 hours ago, nicci78 said:

About the EVF ? With the latest firmware, Ricoh introduced the Snap priority mode, which is pure genius : you can preset your depth of field and your distance. Just like hyperfocal shooting with M lenses. 
You can either change the distance and depth of field on the fly. 
With this mode, EVF is less useful, you can choose an OVF which will stay visible under the sun. Something that no EVF can do. 

I don't understand your point about the EVF not being visible in sunlight. An EVF inherently has much better visibility than an unshielded rear LCD screen. And to me, add-on hotshoe-mounted optical finders are more gimmicky than useful (I tried one on my X70). They're kind of neat, but they add relatively significant bulk to a pocket camera, and there is obviously no information whatsoever displayed to the user, such as exposure settings, focus peaking, and highlight-clipping, all of which I find extremely useful when shooting.

It's great that you're enjoying your Ricoh GR system. It's a very popular camera, and I'm not trying to bash it. But I cannot imagine being satisfied with such a camera as a replacement for my CL. Of course, the CL is much more expensive, and they are really not in the same class at all.

[MJB]

8 hours ago, mike_j said:

You wait till age and arthritis get you. Lact of tilt screen and no stabilisation really spoil my enjoyment of using the CL

How have we existed as photographers for so long without articulating touch screens and in-body image stabilization? I can understand the benefits of such features, particularly as one gets older (I'm not so young myself), but a camera is hardly useless without them (IMO).

[wlaidlaw]

Like others I have the arthritic tremors which are not as bad as the intention tremors of Parkinson's but still quite significant and I find slower speeds on anything much longer than 70mm difficult. I think that may be why I prefer the very heavy Summarex (LTM but usable with LTM to M ring on various camera with adapters, as its considerable mass damps the vibrations. I would really appreciate IBIS on a CL sized camera to utilise my CL/TL lenses. However before I bought the unstabilised 55-135, I rather saw the writing on the wall for Leica APS and bought the OIS Panasonic 70-200, which does provide OIS on a CL and also works on my SL. 

Wilson

[dkCambridgeshire]

2 hours ago, MJB said:

How have we existed as photographers for so long without articulating touch screens and in-body image stabilization? I can understand the benefits of such features, particularly as one gets older (I'm not so young myself), but a camera is hardly useless without them (IMO).

Articulated screens can enable images which are almost impossible to create without a tilting monitor ... https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/284837-the-window-cleaner/. ... Photo taken with great difficulty using a mirror to reflect the monitor image.

The Panasonic S1R's partially articulated  makes architectural photography so much easier ... one reason I use the S1R with e.g. the TL 11-23mm. 

 

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[IkarusJohn]

While the Visoflex 020 doesn’t have the resolution of the EVF in the SL, I find it indispensable. It articulates, so I can take those low shots; it shows the exposure as taken, so it’s great in sunlight; and through the EVF, you get the info options - grid, histogram, all the exposure information, or nothing at all, if that’s your thing.

Sure, it’s large, catches on stuff, can fall off and looks a bit meh, but nothing comes free.  It does what it says on the box, and expands the functionality of the TL2 and the M10-D.  The new one doesn’t seem worth the upgrade - it ain’t pretty!

I’ve always liked the idea of the built in EVF in the CL, except that it doesn’t articulate.

[MJB]

2 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Articulated screens can enable images which are almost impossible to create without a tilting monitor ... https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/284837-the-window-cleaner/. ... Photo taken with great difficulty using a mirror to reflect the monitor image.

The Panasonic S1R's partially articulated  makes architectural photography so much easier ... one reason I use the S1R with e.g. the TL 11-23mm. 

 

Fair points, to be sure. I just personally find that the articulating screens always feel a little flimsier than a camera without, and necessitate a little added bulk. Plus as I've explained I'm already biased against composing on the LCD in the first place, but I do understand that I'm in the minority here.