Leica APS-C -- No more!

[Cobram]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

28 minutes ago, tritentrue said:

You mean made by Sigma?  If it doesn't have a Sony 60mp sensor, a MIJ Sigma-badged version would surely be of interest.

Yes. I mean made by Sigma.

[rob_w]

14 hours ago, LACANYONHIKER said:

I don't understand Rob, are you not happy with the current CL?  Is it failing you in some way?  I totally understand "gear itch" but since I became a Leica owner (last year), I can't see myself using other cameras, I love the simplicity of the cameras and menus, they get out of the way and let me focus on my photography.  You seem very reasonable, why break up with Leica now?  I am curious.

Ha, ha! Yes, I can see how that might come across.  Do I like the CL?  Yes, in many ways it is capable of first rate performance.  But when I look at my CL portfolio over the last 3 years and compare it to photos taken on M cameras before that,  I'm afraid the M results, taken as a whole, are more impressive (apart from the ones where I missed focus due to my eyesight becoming poorer).  We can argue about individual lenses and scenarios.  I am just saying, overall it is not up to what I am used to producing using Leica equipment.

Re the current CL body: I find the ISO performance poor when used indoors at night.  The CL autofocus is not reliable - it often focuses on the wrong subject or forces me to faff around and refocus, face detection is a joke, the wandering focus point is infuriating.   It does not matter how good the Leica lens is if the camera misses focus in the first place.  IBIS is becoming necessary, now that my hands are less steady.  These are all to do with my limitations and preferred shooting scenarios, of course.  No manual focusing for me any more, to take one example.  I look at Le Chef's wonderful Voigtlander pictures and sigh.

I could cope with this if I knew there was a new model coming that addressed the shortcomings, and perhaps one or two new lenses that raise the overall standard of the optics.  But I am tired of waiting for what might happen when there are attractive alternatives in the market today.

I mentioned Sony and someone asked me if I liked all those buttons.  No, I don't.  I would much rather a camera with the svelte elegance Leica can provide.  But they do not make it, so I will have to sort out all those buttons instead.  (Mind you, I do like that Sony provide an aperture ring on their lenses ... ).

It's not "gear itch" which I could scratch with a new lens providing a fresh way of seeing the world.  It's disappointment that I bought into a complete system 3 years ago which now appears to have been abandoned by the manufacturer.  No doubt, there will be a major new announcement the day after I have bought a new system from someone else.  Sod's law!  It may well happen, and if it does I'll cope with it when it is a reality, not speculation. 

Best

Rob

[wlaidlaw]

Rob, 

You have set out the position of us older Leica users perfectly and I whole-heartedly concur. 

Wilson

[Le Chef]

1 hour ago, rob_w said:

I look at Le Chef's wonderful Voigtlander pictures and sigh.

Rob, if you’re looking at my images then I don’t have any Voigtlander pictures. I presume there’s another Chef lurking here I’ve yet to meet!

[lct]

1 hour ago, wlaidlaw said:

Rob, 

You have set out the position of us older Leica users perfectly and I whole-heartedly concur. 

Wilson

Makes me feel young  but don't count me in please as i find the CL's iso performance more than acceptable up to 3200iso, with less banding than my M240 at 6400iso, autofocus i don't use it much but it works fine on my Sigma 18-50/2.8 and i don't need IBIS on 24mp cameras. 40+mp is another story but even if a CL+ with such mp count and IBIS would come in anything but dreams, i would not be interested unless it is a compact FF camera with built-in crop mode of course but it would not be a CL anymore then i guess. YMMV.

[nicci78]

1 hour ago, rob_w said:

Re the current CL body: I find the ISO performance poor when used indoors at night.  The CL autofocus is not reliable - it often focuses on the wrong subject or forces me to faff around and refocus, face detection is a joke, the wandering focus point is infuriating.   It does not matter how good the Leica lens is if the camera misses focus in the first place.  IBIS is becoming necessary, now that my hands are less steady.  These are all to do with my limitations and preferred shooting scenarios, of course. 

You sum up why CL is not yet the ultimate body for TL lenses. Those optics deserve better, like a CL2 with IBIS and Maestro III. 

For example SL2 can be the ultimate (like the last) body for L-mount. Because it got everything for a modern body. 
 

 

One last grief you haven’t talk about CL : its poor exposure metering. One again I will talk about GR III & IIIx. Their highlights protection metering is absolutely awesome ! I love it. It is an eye opening feature. 
You always have to compensate the exposure. Which is time consuming with the risk to let the decisive moment go away. 

[LocalHero1953]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

My eyesight and hands are still good enough for manual focusing (which I don't want) and no IBIS (though I would still like it). We all want different things, though I get the impression small size/weight is the common denominator for most here.

I don't think we can expect any hypothetical/mythical CL successor to be at the bleeding edge of technology. The CL wasn't at launch, but it had all the right compromises in the context of its size. 

I was looking seriously at the Sony A7C (based on the previous generation A7iii) till I realised I could not live with its EVF (and switching lens mounts would be an expensive nuisance). I thought hard about the Sony menu system and buttons. With my CL and SL2-S I use presets most of the time, combined with one or two controls for (e.g.) exposure compensation, aperture. I am sure the Sony controls would continue to irritate me, but perhaps I could mentally block them out by use of presets?

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[rob_w]

48 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

Rob, if you’re looking at my images then I don’t have any Voigtlander pictures. I presume there’s another Chef lurking here I’ve yet to meet!

Whoops!  You are right.  I am thinking of RickP perhaps.   Cheers

[Le Chef]

7 minutes ago, rob_w said:

Whoops!  You are right.  I am thinking of RickP perhaps.   Cheers

That makes sense. Cheers!

[LACANYONHIKER]

3 hours ago, rob_w said:

Ha, ha! Yes, I can see how that might come across.  Do I like the CL?  Yes, in many ways it is capable of first rate performance.  But when I look at my CL portfolio over the last 3 years and compare it to photos taken on M cameras before that,  I'm afraid the M results, taken as a whole, are more impressive (apart from the ones where I missed focus due to my eyesight becoming poorer).  We can argue about individual lenses and scenarios.  I am just saying, overall it is not up to what I am used to producing using Leica equipment.

Re the current CL body: I find the ISO performance poor when used indoors at night.  The CL autofocus is not reliable - it often focuses on the wrong subject or forces me to faff around and refocus, face detection is a joke, the wandering focus point is infuriating.   It does not matter how good the Leica lens is if the camera misses focus in the first place.  IBIS is becoming necessary, now that my hands are less steady.  These are all to do with my limitations and preferred shooting scenarios, of course.  No manual focusing for me any more, to take one example.  I look at Le Chef's wonderful Voigtlander pictures and sigh.

I could cope with this if I knew there was a new model coming that addressed the shortcomings, and perhaps one or two new lenses that raise the overall standard of the optics.  But I am tired of waiting for what might happen when there are attractive alternatives in the market today.

I mentioned Sony and someone asked me if I liked all those buttons.  No, I don't.  I would much rather a camera with the svelte elegance Leica can provide.  But they do not make it, so I will have to sort out all those buttons instead.  (Mind you, I do like that Sony provide an aperture ring on their lenses ... ).

It's not "gear itch" which I could scratch with a new lens providing a fresh way of seeing the world.  It's disappointment that I bought into a complete system 3 years ago which now appears to have been abandoned by the manufacturer.  No doubt, there will be a major new announcement the day after I have bought a new system from someone else.  Sod's law!  It may well happen, and if it does I'll cope with it when it is a reality, not speculation. 

Best

Rob

That makes sense to me. The CL is definitely not a low light camera. I've used it primarily for urban landscapes and travel. I owned a Q2 before buying the CL (which I foolishly sold). When I compared my Q2 images with the full frame sensor to my CL images, the limitations were clear. So of course I bought another Q2 LOL. I am fortunate to have both systems now for different use purposes. I do find myself grabbing my Q2 more and more and keeping my CL as a back up in my bag. (I just really hate backpacking with my Q2, the CL is light with the 18 prime). 
 

I’ve had Sony systems as well as Fuji and they are great performers. Thanks for your response!  

Edited April 14, 2022 by LACANYONHIKER

[Simone_DF]

2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

One again I will talk about GR III & IIIx. Their highlights protection metering is absolutely awesome ! I love it. It is an eye opening feature. 
You always have to compensate the exposure. Which is time consuming with the risk to let the decisive moment go away. 

Both SL2 and SL2-s have highlight metering. The feature was introduced in the last firmware update. It works the same as on a GR III. 

[Simone_DF]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I was looking seriously at the Sony A7C (based on the previous generation A7iii) till I realised I could not live with its EVF (and switching lens mounts would be an expensive nuisance). I thought hard about the Sony menu system and buttons. With my CL and SL2-S I use presets most of the time, combined with one or two controls for (e.g.) exposure compensation, aperture. I am sure the Sony controls would continue to irritate me, but perhaps I could mentally block them out by use of presets?

The Sony has a "favorite" section, just like the SL, where you can add your preferred menu items. Once you set it up, you don't have to dig into the rest of the menu anymore.

All buttons on Sony bodies can be customized. You can set it up the way you want it. You could even mimick the SL by mapping the corresponding Sony wheel / button to what you have on the SL (I haven't tried it myself).

[Kim Dahl]

5 hours ago, rob_w said:

Ha, ha! Yes, I can see how that might come across.  Do I like the CL?  Yes, in many ways it is capable of first rate performance.  But when I look at my CL portfolio over the last 3 years and compare it to photos taken on M cameras before that,  I'm afraid the M results, taken as a whole, are more impressive (apart from the ones where I missed focus due to my eyesight becoming poorer).  We can argue about individual lenses and scenarios.  I am just saying, overall it is not up to what I am used to producing using Leica equipment.

Re the current CL body: I find the ISO performance poor when used indoors at night.  The CL autofocus is not reliable - it often focuses on the wrong subject or forces me to faff around and refocus, face detection is a joke, the wandering focus point is infuriating.   It does not matter how good the Leica lens is if the camera misses focus in the first place.  IBIS is becoming necessary, now that my hands are less steady.  These are all to do with my limitations and preferred shooting scenarios, of course.  No manual focusing for me any more, to take one example.  I look at Le Chef's wonderful Voigtlander pictures and sigh.

I could cope with this if I knew there was a new model coming that addressed the shortcomings, and perhaps one or two new lenses that raise the overall standard of the optics.  But I am tired of waiting for what might happen when there are attractive alternatives in the market today.

I mentioned Sony and someone asked me if I liked all those buttons.  No, I don't.  I would much rather a camera with the svelte elegance Leica can provide.  But they do not make it, so I will have to sort out all those buttons instead.  (Mind you, I do like that Sony provide an aperture ring on their lenses ... ).

It's not "gear itch" which I could scratch with a new lens providing a fresh way of seeing the world.  It's disappointment that I bought into a complete system 3 years ago which now appears to have been abandoned by the manufacturer.  No doubt, there will be a major new announcement the day after I have bought a new system from someone else.  Sod's law!  It may well happen, and if it does I'll cope with it when it is a reality, not speculation. 

Best

Rob

It can not be said better.  I feel the same way.  There is no hint of rumors about what Leica will  do about the situation it is very frustrating.  Right now, Leica is completely out.  I bought Canon and my leica M and my TL2 I still use less and less.
 I've  realized that other camera brands do it (in some cases) a lot better.  
Leica is (for me) - small cameras where you as a photographer are willing to compromise on some things. 
But not like CL / TL2 where you for such a long time have no idea where you stand for such a long time.

Leica it is simply not good enough the way you treat loyal customers !!!

best Kim 

[MJB]

Personally, I find that my CL with TL lenses performs admirably in low-light. And I have very little problem with missed autofocus. I really think a lot of these complaints are overblown and I detect an oddly personal tone taken by many of the complainers. Life is short. Find a camera you enjoy and use it. For me, that is the CL (among others).

[Louis]

1 hour ago, Kim Dahl said:

It can not be said better.  I feel the same way.  There is no hint of rumors about what Leica will  do about the situation it is very frustrating.  Right now, Leica is completely out.  I bought Canon and my leica M and my TL2 I still use less and less.
 I've  realized that other camera brands do it (in some cases) a lot better.  
Leica is (for me) - small cameras where you as a photographer are willing to compromise on some things. 
But not like CL / TL2 where you for such a long time have no idea where you stand for such a long time.

Leica it is simply not good enough the way you treat loyal customers !!!

best Kim 

Besides the M system, everything Leica has been doing was a kind of "experimentations"! Like a kid that plays with one toy, then throw it away for another toy! They have been taking us for granted; playing with our time, our money  and even with the "Name" of Leica! But that name has been greatly damaged by a bunch of people who are taking decisions without considering their customers!.... 

I know; Leica "proxies " may jump a defend Leica, reminding us that Leica is also a market; therefore, a business!. I am not a business oriented person, but my common sense tells me that in any "business" you must have a strategy; you must develop your clientele, and you must keep them happy to last!.... Leica has been doing just the; besides, perhaps, for the M line! 

What made many of us very unhappy was Leica not having any consideration for us, and keeping us in the dark; letting different conspiracies going around! They only communicate through some of their "proxies" ; but we are not even sure how much we should count on any of these apologists  "comments" !... Should we still trust the so called new system that they are working on; and how long would that one last after all the money that some had expended for it!

Edited April 14, 2022 by Louis

[lct]

We could have said the same, more or less, in 1975 when the M5 was dropped, in 1976 at the demise of the film CL, in 2009 at that of the R system, again the same in 2020 at the demise of the Summarit line. This is the way Leica lives and survives in a world where many camera makers have shut down. In my country (France) i still remember of photo brands like Foca (the French Leica), Angénieux, Berthiot, Ercsam (my first movie camera), Royer, Secam, SEM, Royflex, Richard (my dear old stereo camera). Only Angénieux and Berthiot are still alive if i'm not wrong. Kudos to Leica for having accompanied me since my first M4 in 1971 until the M11 i should receive the Leica way i.e... when they are ready at Wetzlar . FWIW.

[Kim Dahl]

1 hour ago, Louis said:

Besides the M system, everything Leica has been doing was a kind of "experimentations"! Like a kid that plays with one toy, then throw it away for another toy! They have been taking us for granted; playing with our time, our money  and even with the "Name" of Leica! But that name has been greatly damaged by a bunch of people who are taking decisions without considering their customers!.... 

I know; Leica "proxies " may jump a defend Leica, reminding us that Leica is also a market; therefore, a business!. I am not a business oriented person, but my common sense tells me that in any "business" you must have a strategy; you must develop your clientele, and you must keep them happy to last!.... Leica has been doing just the; besides, perhaps, for the M line! 

What made many of us very unhappy was Leica not having any consideration for us, and keeping us in the dark; letting different conspiracies going around! They only communicate through some of their "proxies" ; but we are not even sure how much we should count on any of these apologists  "comments" !... Should we still trust the so called new system that they are working on; and how long would that one last after all the money that some had expended for it!

You're right.  They play with others' time and money.  If the Leica M or Q is not something there is not much left.  I bought TL because I believed in them.  I like my Leica MD a lot but use it less and less.  If I did not have so many M lenses I would start somewhere else today.  The new M11s have simply become too expensive.  But my TL2 with 4 lenses was not a replacement for my M but a supplement.  Now I'm betting on another brand. 

[Enrique Santa]

1 hour ago, Louis said: Should we still trust the so called new system that they are working on; and how long would that one last after all the money that some had expended for it!

Well said Louis, I don't know if Leica ceos and managers, are conscious of the damage that have done to the brand .  The atittude of Leica only can be clasified as absoluty arrogant with their coustomers. 

So now their big problem is TRUST in Leica as a brand.

Lets think for a moment...they can put an L mount in a Q, something that most of us have had wish for years. I doubt that they will  make it , in my opinion this will kill the entire apsc line, the Q line, the Sl line an seriously dismish the sales of  their M cams (their clients are like me old people, with eyes in not very good condition and with arthritis in our hands😅) ..So again no sense to forget apsc line, that have their place in Leica ecosystem and launch a new system with the posibility of kill the rest of Leica production.....as always IMHO.

[Enrique Santa]

55 minutes ago, lct said:

We could have said the same, more or less, in 1975 when the M5 was dropped, in 1976 at the demise of the film CL, in 2009 at that of the R system, again the same in 2020 at the demise of the Summarit line. This is the way Leica lives and survives in a world where many camera makers have shut down. In my country (France) i still remember of photo brands like Foca (the French Leica), Angénieux, Berthiot, Ercsam (my first movie camera), Royer, Secam, SEM, Royflex, Richard (my dear old stereo camera). Only Angénieux and Berthiot are still alive if i'm not wrong. Kudos to Leica for having accompanied me since my first M4 in 1971 until the M11 i should receive the Leica way i.e... when they are ready at Wetzlar . FWIW.

You are right, they have survive at our expense, after invest a lot of money in their projects. So you are right, after all this decisions, we can conclude fron a coustomer point of view that we can't trust in Leica.

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Enrique Santa

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Guest]

13 hours ago, nicci78 said:

I am today perfectly happy with my Ricoh GR III/IIIx full setup. 
It is refreshing to change brand. Ricoh offering is quite awesome : 

- effective IBIS (Q2 OIS looks like a useless toy next to it).  
- very nice screen. I never realised how dimmed Q2 and CL rear screens were, before putting them next to GR III very bright one. 
- excellent ergonomics, superior to Q2 and CL with their wandering focus point, which moves wherever it wants and never stay put in the center. This point drives users crazy and Leica refuses to fix it for years. 
- superior touch panel. This the way to make touch screen. It is way better than TL2. 
- excellent optics. It is splendid. Especially GR IIIx. 
- über tiny. It is really the way to make good use of APS-C sensor. 
- TTL flash that works !!! Leica should be ashamed of their useless flash system. Never the same exposure with Leica. 
- USB-C charging. Yeah it is neat. 
 

However GR III biggest issue is the lack of EVF. For some it is a deal breaker. 

What year did the sensor itself in your dustpumping Ricoh GR III/IIIx come out?