Leica APS-C -- No more!

[jaapv]

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But they work just fine on any L-mount camera.

[jaapv]

8 hours ago, tri said:

pixii.fr Quote:

DXOMARK states:

Pixii….. 90

Leica M10…… 86

= Pixii being APS-C tops Leica M10 which is FF!

Lucky me, I‘m well stocked with cameras. 

Otherwise being impulsive and always up to date, my new Pixii would be here very soon.

(Thank you lct: I‘ll keep an eye on it.)

ps: my problem to understand why Fujifilm sells their new sensor to Pixii, even before their own new cameras have that improvement.

And the Samsung NX 300 beats the Leica S - DXO is not much more than a parlour game...

[adan]

7 minutes ago, jaapv said:

But they work just fine on any L-mount camera.

Possibly, but that is going around in circles. What the folks here want (apparently) is TL/SL mount and a significantly more compact camera. Size of the CL, or very close.

Not one or the other.

[jaapv]

Yes, but this was about the comparison to the demise of the R system.

[adan]

And R lenses can be used on an SL (or a Canon, or for that matter, an M with Viso EVF) as well.

What we in the trade call "a distinction without a difference."

[tritentrue]

9 hours ago, tri said:

It‘s people with APS-C LEICA lenses, who are reminded of the situation way back, when Leica discontinued analog SLRs.
They had a bagful of R lenses and Leitax adaptors didn‘t exist yet. A déjà-vu of an unhappy situation.
(The flange back distance of APS-C lenses making them not suitable for any adaptors). 

Actually, not so long after Leica announced the discontinuation of the R line, both Novoflex and Kipon had adapters on the market (by late 2010) for using R lenses on Sony E-mount mirrorless bodies.

And by the time the original T Typ 701 came out, almost exactly eight years ago, there were numerous options for cross-platform mounting where flange focal distance and physical obstructions didn't obviate the pairing.  What a great little camera that was for the time, especially with M and R glass!

Edited April 11, 2022 by tritentrue
Time frame

[jaapv]

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7 hours ago, adan said:

And R lenses can be used on an SL (or a Canon, or for that matter, an M with Viso EVF) as well.

What we in the trade call "a distinction without a difference."

Very few SLs around when the R was discontinued...

 

6 hours ago, tritentrue said:

Actually, not so long after Leica announced the discontinuation of the R line, both Novoflex and Kipon had adapters on the market (by late 2010) for using R lenses on Sony E-mount mirrorless bodies.

And by the time the original T Typ 701 came out, almost exactly eight years ago, there were numerous options for cross-platform mounting where flange focal distance and physical obstructions didn't obviate the pairing.  What a great little camera that was for the time, especially with M and R glass!

The R line was effectively abandoned before 2005, much like the APS line now. Leica only formally announced it five years later, after they sold off what stocks they could.

 

15 hours ago, tri said:

It‘s people with APS-C LEICA lenses, who are reminded of the situation way back, when Leica discontinued analog SLRs.
They had a bagful of R lenses and Leitax adaptors didn‘t exist yet. A déjà-vu of an unhappy situation.
(The flange back distance of APS-C lenses making them not suitable for any adaptors). 

This was the post I reacted to. I only pointed out that Leica still makes cameras that are designed to use TL lenses, unlike the R situation. I fail to see much merit in heckling. 

[nicci78]

16 minutes ago, jaapv said:

This was the post I reacted to. I only pointed out that Leica still makes cameras that are designed to use TL lenses, unlike the R situation. I fail to see much merit in heckling. 

I beg to differ, Leica indeed makes cameras that can accept TL lenses. However when the last TL2 and CL will be sold, there will be no brand new camera perfectly suitable for TL lenses. I mean small lenses paired with small bodies. 

A reminder of size difference : one is 10 or 20MP on APS-C mode, the other is 24MP. 

SL2-S weighs 1,011g with TL 18 when CL weighs only 483g. Less than half. 

The bulk difference is obvious. No matter how we look at it. The SL2/SL2-S are huge and heavy.

 

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[nicci78]

Another comparison : same FOV and DOF abilities :

SL2 + APO-Summicron-SL 50mm f/2 = 1 711g with hood

CL + Summilux-TL 35mm f/1.4= 901g with hood

 

I really can't see how SL2 can replace the CL. 

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[jaapv]

Nicci - discontinued R MOUNT, that is all. Bulk is a different discussion. (If it is a discussion at all)

[nicci78]

That's the same situation. CL/TL2 sized hardwares will be no more. 

Just like R lenses were stucked to old R bodies for several years. 

How long do TL lenses owners have to wait for a decent alternative (which SL2 is absolutely not) 

[rob_w]

Just spent a day in London looking at cameras and working out next steps.  I came away very impressed with what Sony are doing.  Apologies to the better informed members of the forum for what I am about to share.  It was new to me.

Having used Leica for 40 years the only affair I had during that time was with a Canon DSLR back when it looked as if Leica had no digital future.  Then the M8 came along and I resumed the journey with Leica products: M8, M9, M240 and when manual focus became impractical, I switched to the CL system.  Sony I always dismissed, based largely on the mediocre legacy they acquired from Minolta. 

It seems that in recent years Sony have expanded and improved their system massively, so it is now considered the top choice by pro photographers I know.  Their camera bodies are compact, lighter than all the opposition (the SL2 is 50% heavier, BTW) and perform very well.  The lens system is greatly expanded and includes high end lenses that are universally praised, as well as compact lenses that are practical and light.  The E lens mount is available to the likes of Sigma, Zeiss and Tamron so they can provide full-function equivalents, just as in the L mount alliance.

Researching before the trip I was thinking of, say, an SL2 with a set of compact Sigma lenses to keep the weight and size manageable, with perhaps one of the SL primes for the most demanding requirements.   Afterwards it seemed to me that I could do the same with, say, the Sony A7R4, using the same Sigma lenses and a Sony G Master prime.

For that I get a compact body with class leading autofocus (the performance is amazing), IBIS, high end viewfinder, 60 Mpx croppable in camera, class leading high ISO performance, ... etc. Everyting I would ever have wanted in the CL2, available today (available two years ago in fact) at an affordable price.

I can still trade-in my CL system for half its new value, to contribute more than half the cost of changing to the Sony equivalent.  Has the time come for a divorce?

Edited April 11, 2022 by rob_w

[tritentrue]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

The R line was effectively abandoned before 2005, much like the APS line now. Leica only formally announced it five years later, after they sold off what stocks they could.

That's why I wrote "announced," which occurred in March 2009.   Here we go OT again . . . 

[rob_w]

PS perhaps my one regret would be leaving this community of Leica photographers after 20 years of membership.

Others here must be having similar thoughts.  The facts are compelling.  Would appreciate your views.

[Simone_DF]

1 minute ago, rob_w said:

PS perhaps my one regret would be leaving this community of Leica photographers after 20 years of membership.

Others here must be having similar thoughts.  The facts are compelling.  Would appreciate your views.

Sony is an excellent choice. They have the best autofocus in class. Point the camera to something and it will stick to it like superglue even if they start jumping around.

Their lens lineup is huge and with some truly outstanding lenses. All the Sony lenses + all the Sigma lenses + Zeiss, Tamron, native Voigtlanders with some exclusive lenses not available not even for M mount and a bunch of other native third party brands.  

Their menu system is horrible, but once you set your favorite options, you don't need to touch the remaining options anymore. Also, if people can use Photoshop, can definitely use a Sony too.

My only problem with the Sonys is their colors. The images have a strong digital look and I find working with the files to be more difficult than with Leica files.

[nicci78]

I left Leica APS-C for a whole Ricoh GR set up. It is awesome. 

It is tiny, CL looks huge and heavy next to GR III

Q2 can be next to go. GR III is so fun. 

 

GR III are only around 250g, CL is 400g naked. 

GR III has IBIS and ultrasonic antidust system : CL none of that. 

Pentax AF201FG is an awesome tiny flash with perfect and reliable exposure.  All Leica flash are just crap. Shame to Leica for such poor TTL behaviour. 

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Edited April 11, 2022 by nicci78

[lct]

1 hour ago, rob_w said:

I can still trade-in my CL system for half its new value, to contribute more than half the cost of changing to the Sony equivalent.  Has the time come for a divorce?

Leica+Sony user here. No problem with Sony colors (to me) if you shoot raw. There is less work to do in PP on Sony files than on Fuji ones in my experience because Fuji colors are more Fuji than natural so to speak but some people like that. Great Sony/Zeiss lenses too. I did not react to a post above but a lens like the Zeiss 55/1.8 can compete, performance wise, with any of my Leica lenses besides perhaps the 50/2 apo but i would have to do side by side comparos to be sure. If you need AF you won't be disappointed with Sony. What you could miss is the character of M lenses if you use them, their small size and manual controls, the simplicity of the CL's menus, its tactile quality so to speak as well as its resale value. 

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

I left Leica APS-C for a whole Ricoh GR set up. It is awesome. 

I second this. I love my GRIII! And the Snap Focus feature is great, I'm surprised Leica didn't think of a similar feature

[Simone_DF]

58 minutes ago, lct said:

 did not react to a post above but a lens like the Zeiss 55/1.8 can compete, performance wise, with any of my Leica lenses besides perhaps the 50/2 apo but i would have to do side by side comparos to be sure.

The 55 was my favorite lens on Sony bodies and the only one that I really miss. It's a truly outstanding lens for price/weight/performance.

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[lct]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

I left Leica APS-C for a whole Ricoh GR set up. It is awesome. 

It is tiny, CL looks huge and heavy next to GR III

Q2 can be next to go. GR III is so fun. 

 

GR III are only around 250g, CL is 400g naked. 

GR III has IBIS and ultrasonic antidust system : CL none of that. 

Pentax AF201FG is an awesome tiny flash with perfect and reliable exposure.  All Leica flash are just crap. Shame to Leica for such poor TTL behaviour. 

The Ricoh GR3 is a fixed lens camera sans VF. I liked much my Ricoh GXR M-mount but it is discontinued and its EVF is outdated now.

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