Leica APS-C -- No more!

[rob_w]

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2 hours ago, tritentrue said:

Seeing how some full frame L-mount gear is being sold out the back door here at a discount, and secondhand SL lenses are going in some instances for less than half their original prices, is starting to make me wonder if their entire L-mount line is in trouble . . . 

I hate playing armchair CEO, but I have received so many offers and so much promotion from Leica in the last six months it does make me wonder if you are right.

[Ivar B]

6 minutes ago, rob_w said:

I hate playing armchair CEO, but I have received so many offers and so much promotion from Leica in the last six months it does make me wonder if you are right.

There would be no need for discounts if demand outstripped supply.

[smcmason]

24 minutes ago, Ivar B said:

There would be no need for discounts if demand outstripped supply.

To be fair, they just announced increases in pricing to multiple SL bodies and lenses. This follows price increases for SL bodies, SL lenses, CL bodies, and TL lenses in 2021.

[Louis]

1 hour ago, smcmason said:

This is the second time I've seen you allude to this sort of possibility within this thread. I cannot tell you how excited I would be to see something like that come out. I'll assume you have the inside knowledge and this announcement is a certainty. It makes me feel better  

😅
My only inside knowledge was about Leica ending APSC line and dismissing the team.

I also was told about a smaller than SL camera.All the rest is just wishful thinking, and QL has been mentioned (hoped) by much more people than only me! 🤗😁

Edited March 10, 2022 by Louis

[Ivar B]

2 hours ago, smcmason said:

To be fair, they just announced increases in pricing to multiple SL bodies and lenses. This follows price increases for SL bodies, SL lenses, CL bodies, and TL lenses in 2021.

Yes, perhaps this is so. Here in Norway we had a 10 % discount up until fairly recently.

I am sometimes a little puzzled when I see used M and SL lenses for sale. M lenses disappear fairly quickly, but several SL lenses (or L-mount lenses in general) remain unsold for a long time. There are no doubt many superb lenses available. I have the feeling that the bodies face a hard time in the marketplace. 

[Simone_DF]

4 hours ago, Ivar B said:

I am sometimes a little puzzled when I see used M and SL lenses for sale. M lenses disappear fairly quickly, but several SL lenses (or L-mount lenses in general) remain unsold for a long time. There are no doubt many superb lenses available. I have the feeling that the bodies face a hard time in the marketplace. 

That is true, but the market share is different. M lenses can be used on Sony, Canon, Nikon, Fuji bodies and appeal more shooters, not just M owners.

L lenses can be used only on L mount cameras, their market is restricted to a handful of people. I'm talking about Leica lenses here, because used Sigma and Panasonic lenses sell relatively fast on the used market.

[tritentrue]

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34 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

That is true, but the market share is different. M lenses can be used on Sony, Canon, Nikon, Fuji bodies and appeal more shooters, not just M owners.

L lenses can be used only on L mount cameras, their market is restricted to a handful of people. I'm talking about Leica lenses here, because used Sigma and Panasonic lenses sell relatively fast on the used market.

Summilux-SL 50mm f/1.4 ASPH = 1065g

Summilux-M 50mm f/1.4 ASPH = 335g

Here, where Panasonic has a huge footprint and Sigma E-mount glass sells like Tootsie Pops, Lumix S L-mount has been available only by special order for the past couple of years. I know of one store that still has a few unsold cameras and lenses from their initial shipment.  Sigma L-mount appears to be stocked in low quantity, and some items like teleconverters are available only by special order.  One doesn't have to look too hard to find a new copy of the SL2-S discounted by 15%, with grey market sets discounted as much as 23%.

As for the CL, at least one of the three Leica-run shops doesn't even have a copy on display.

Edited March 11, 2022 by tritentrue
Grammar

[robgo2]

On 3/8/2022 at 7:09 PM, Le Chef said:

It’s sailed for Leica, but Fuji seems to have made a concerted effort and continues to reap success from this “niche”.

Sure, but I cannot use my TL lenses on a Fuji camera body. And no one knows how long Fuji will stay in the APS-C game.

[Mr.Prime]

If you really want longevity it will be difficult as the technology is constantly evolving. I think we all know that an M4 will likely outlast many of today’s products.

[Le Chef]

1 hour ago, robgo2 said:

Sure, but I cannot use my TL lenses on a Fuji camera body. And no one knows how long Fuji will stay in the APS-C game.

I would bet on Fuji staying in the game: they must be making money if a revised X-range launches later this year with a brand new sensor. The volume is there to make that investment worthwhile.

In the end why would anyone bother to make an adaptor for TL lenses? No volume and no money in it to be worth the investment. That ship has sailed thanks to Leica’s mismanagement.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Le Chef

[Simone_DF]

8 hours ago, tritentrue said:

Summilux-SL 50mm f/1.4 ASPH = 1065g

Summilux-M 50mm f/1.4 ASPH = 335g

Here, where Panasonic has a huge footprint and Sigma E-mount glass sells like Tootsie Pops, Lumix S L-mount has been available only by special order for the past couple of years. I know of one store that still has a few unsold cameras and lenses from their initial shipment.  Sigma L-mount appears to be stocked in low quantity, and some items like teleconverters are available only by special order.  One doesn't have to look too hard to find a new copy of the SL2-S discounted by 15%, with grey market sets discounted as much as 23%.

As for the CL, at least one of the three Leica-run shops doesn't even have a copy on display.

Yup, Panasonic and Leica thought that, in a market dominated by smaller bodies/lens combos, releasing gargantuan lenses and cameras was a good idea, because why not. 🤦‍♂️

I kept my Lux 50 M and I'd never buy the SL version, no matter how good it is and how low the price is.

But it's still early to claim the demise of the L mount. It's a brand new mount, it's tough to get market share from scratch in a market dominated by the very good offerings of Canon and Sony, and the Panasonic strategy didn't help. I think they ended up with about 5% market share, but it jumped up only when the S5, a smaller, lighter camera, was released. And it looks like Panasonic learned the lesson, and apologized about the rubbish autofocus too, which is now to the point of being usable.

[LACANYONHIKER]

20 hours ago, smcmason said:

To be fair, they just announced increases in pricing to multiple SL bodies and lenses. This follows price increases for SL bodies, SL lenses, CL bodies, and TL lenses in 2021.

Actually, the CL and TL lenses were not even mentioned in that price increase list.  😑

[tritentrue]

23 minutes ago, LACANYONHIKER said:

Actually, the CL and TL lenses were not even mentioned in that price increase list.  😑

I guess Leica figures that if they drop enough hints, we'll all finally catch on.

Too bad they don't have the moxie to come right out and say it, especially since it would surely drive sales of their remaining stock.  I'm not a business-oriented individual, but even I can see that what @Le Chef has been saying about their business acumen, or lack thereof, is pretty much on target.

[smcmason]

1 hour ago, LACANYONHIKER said:

Actually, the CL and TL lenses were not even mentioned in that price increase list.  😑

According to the press release at the time they were. I understand they are not listed in the current (2022) price increase. That's why I didn't mention them in the first sentence I wrote.

[rivi1969]

More and more people get money-conscious, and diminishing returns has come to a point where we can get 90% of the performance for 10% of the cost of many things, including cameras. So, unless we are deep into the "heritage", "experience" plus a healthy bank account, there are way better options to put our money.

A friend of mine (35 years old hipster, married, 2 kids and paying mortgage) drools over a Fuji X100V, simply because with a little savings here and it is doable for him. Spending $9000 on an M11 (plus a lens) is not on his radar. He better upgrade his car first. So it would be very interesting to know the Leica demographics. how old are their consumers? how rich?

Are they appealing to a younger crowd? Their last lousy attempted to become the next Jaeger LeCoultre with a couple of overpriced, average watches, tells me they couldn't care less about that audience. 

[Le Chef]

I suspect they don’t really have a clue about the details of their audience. As a company, unless you’re truly interesting in knowing more about your audience, you take the shortcut and assume they’re just like you. 

[lct]

Not sure if the demographics have changed in 50 years. Just people who can afford a Leica.

[tritentrue]

2 hours ago, rivi1969 said:

More and more people get money-conscious, and diminishing returns has come to a point where we can get 90% of the performance for 10% of the cost of many things, including cameras. So, unless we are deep into the "heritage", "experience" plus a healthy bank account, there are way better options to put our money.

As far as full-frame L-mount bodies go, it's more like 100-125% of the performance of L bodies for half or less the cost.  And lenses are fast bridging the 10% gap you mentioned.  Look at some of the recent Voigtlander VM offerings.

I just ditched my SL2-S and Sigma 150-600 (used for bird photography) in favor of a Nikon 500mm PF and entry-level Z fc.  At less than half the weight and about 20% of the price, the little camera can shoot rings around the SL2-S in terms of focus speed and accuracy in demanding situations.  Its IQ cedes little or nothing to Leica's.

My CL and TL glass are safe for now, just hoping Leica doesn't pull the rug out from under those of us who may need items serviced in the future.

[adan]

1 hour ago, Le Chef said:

I suspect they don’t really have a clue about the details of their audience. As a company, unless you’re truly interesting in knowing more about your audience, you take the shortcut and assume they’re just like you. 

Ya think?

Last time I sent in a physical warranty card to Leica (either 2009 for the M9, or a bit earlier for an M6ttl) it had a nice little survey on it: gender, age bracket, income bracket, amateur or professional, what the product would be used for (Vacations, Family, Sports, Landscape, Reportage, Scientific, Fine Art, etc.). And so on. Rinse and repeat for lenses, flashes/accessories, etc. Anything with a serial number or warranty.

I don't know if that still applies now that warranty registry is online with a "Leica Account" or not. But I can't imagine why not.

https://leica-camera.com/en-US/leica-account

Not everyone will fill in the survey, of course.

But even so, Leica will know from any registered warranty where and when a product was purchased (exclusive Leica Store (walk-in or by mail), or small dealer, or other mail-order store; Paris, NYC, Singapore, small town; high-income zip, or otherwise) - and what was paid for it. And it's all databased so they can cross-reference all the things each customer has purchased  - and their value. Customer A has purchased $18415 in the past 10 years, while Customer B has purchased $44347 in the same time period, and Customer C $8216.

Not exactly "Big Data" (ethnicity, web history, movies/music streamed in the past week), but enough to sort out the basic demographics, with a good analysis. Most such surveys only need a small percent of responses (sample size) to represent the whole pretty accurately. Especially since Leica can compare it with their own production/sales records (what dealers are ordering, and where, and which S/Ns were shipped).

(I've worked retail. In fact I've worked camera retail. In fact I've worked Leica camera retail - I've seen it from the inside.)

Edited March 15, 2022 by adan

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[idusidusi]

1 hour ago, adan said:

Ya think?

Last time I sent in a physical warranty card to Leica (either 2009 for the M9, or a bit earlier for an M6ttl) it had a nice little survey on it: gender, age bracket, income bracket, amateur or professional, what the product would be used for (Vacations, Family, Sports, Landscape, Reportage, Scientific, Fine Art, etc.). And so on. Rinse and repeat for lenses, flashes/accessories, etc. Anything with a serial number or warranty.

I don't know if that still applies now that warranty registry is online with a "Leica Account" or not. But I can't imagine why not.

https://leica-camera.com/en-US/leica-account

Not everyone will fill in the survey, of course.

But even so, Leica will know from any registered warranty where and when a product was purchased (exclusive Leica Store (walk-in or by mail), or small dealer, or other mail-order store; Paris, NYC, Singapore, small town; high-income zip, or otherwise) - and what was paid for it. And it's all databased so they can cross-reference all the things each customer has purchased  - and their value. Customer A has purchased $18415 in the past 10 years, while Customer B has purchased $44347 in the same time period, and Customer C $8216.

Not exactly "Big Data" (ethnicity, web history, movies/music streamed in the past week), but enough to sort out the basic demographics, with a good analysis. Most such surveys only need a small percent of responses (sample size) to represent the whole pretty accurately. Especially since Leica can compare it with their own production/sales records (what dealers are ordering, and where, and which S/Ns were shipped).

(I've worked retail. In fact I've worked camera retail. In fact I've worked Leica camera retail - I've seen it from the inside.)

Interesting!