IIIf RD - 1/1000 is special somehow, right?

[qqphot]

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I have a Leica IIIf RD just back from Youxin Ye. I'm disappointed in the service for a number of reasons, but one is that 1/500th and 1/1000th are *exactly* the same speed. I filmed the shutter with a high speed camera and there is no difference. Same width on the left, same width on the right, same transit duration. 1/200 and below seem more or less okay.  If there's anyone here who understands the mechanism, is this a failure that makes some kind of sense?

The other disappointing thing was that lots of black rubber glue had squeezed through the folded-over curtain edge and hardened, causing very visible streaks across each frame. For that I just scraped the extra chunks off the outside edge so I could at least take some pictures.

The advice is obviously always "send it out to get adjusted" but I literally *just got it back* from that, and the speeds are incorrect. At some point I'm just throwing money away rotating cameras between repairmen for months at a time.

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[250swb]

So what did he say when you queried it with him? Did he refuse to take it back for rectification or something?

[jerzy]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb qqphot:

is this a failure that makes some kind of sense?

yes, it makes sense. There are 2 eccentric screws for adjustement, yellow one is for 1/500 and longer (until 1/25), blue one is for 1/1000 only. So 1/500 and below may be perfect and 1/1000 might be off in the same time. BUT - talk firstly to him, there could be a valid reason that it is like it is, springs could be already altered, extensive usage of shutter parts, etc. I had already cases that while 1/500 was correctly set the 1/1000 was irregular and sometimes even capping. In such case it is better to set it for ex to 1/700 and have it stable then set to 1/1000 but irregular. And keep in mind that factory specs say even +-30% on very fast speeds, it is pure mechanics

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[jerzy]

let me add one more thing, as a warning for DYI persons - this adjustemnt is very sensitive, shall be done only by persons who understands what is the impact, whiohave experience and appropriate testing equipment. 

[Pyrogallol]

I had a 1940 Leica Standard serviced recently and my repair man had to replace one of the shutter blinds to be able to make a half-millimetre adjustment to get the 500th working correctly.

[spydrxx]

Usually Mr. Ye sends along comments of things which either he couldn't properly fix or might need to be replaced. Did he communicate issues with you?

[oldwino]

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My understanding is that 1/1000 on a Leica with a cloth shutter is never accurate. Best it can do is 1/750 or 1/700. Nature of a mechanical device. 

[qqphot]

I'm certainly not going to touch it and will probably live with it rather than trying to get it fixed and have something else end up broken.

[LocalHero1953]

This thread made me wonder: how do professionals check the speeds of cloth focal plane shutters? 

[nitroplait]

Just want to say that 4 of 9 repairs I have sent to reputable repair technicians during the past 2 years had to go back for adjustments.

All techs were highly recommended - all errors were fixed without further discussion- but a drag nevertheless.

[Pyrogallol]

Just how many times do we actually need 1/1000th anyway ? It always feels more “vintage” to be using the slower speeds 1/20th 1/30th etc and a slow speed film with the screw cameras, especially the 1930’s ones. Just as it feels right to use FILCA cassettes instead of modern ones.

[jerzy]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb LocalHero1953:

how do professionals check the speeds of cloth focal plane shutters?

there are 2 methods: electronically and "analog". There are electronic shutter tersters, depending on the model they measire the exposure time usually in the middle of the framer only and some measure as well run time of curtain 1 and 2 separately for the first and the second curtain and some measure the speed in 3 points: begin, middle and end of the frame. Important is not only that the speed is close to nomimal, equally important is that the exposure time is equal accros the whole frame. And electronical shutter tester are not the best for this. Until M4 Leitz was using this "analog" method only, starting with M5 and CL Leitz started with electronical measurement but kept in addition the "analog" method to see if both curtrains run properly accros the whole frame. Device used for this method is called "light drum" or "stroboscope light drum". This is how measurement has been done, right photo show "master" to verify camera shutter. Lower photo shows the picure seen when using this device. This subject has been discussed alreday few times in english but as well german Forum but if youz have particular questions contact me per PN

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[LocalHero1953]

11 minutes ago, jerzy said:

there are 2 methods: electronically and "analog". There are electronic shutter tersters, depending on the model they measire the exposure time usually in the middle of the framer only and some measure as well run time of curtain 1 and 2 separately for the first and the second curtain and some measure the speed in 3 points: begin, middle and end of the frame. Important is not only that the speed is close to nomimal, equally important is that the exposure time is equal accros the whole frame. And electronical shutter tester are not the best for this. Until M4 Leitz was using this "analog" method only, starting with M5 and CL Leitz started with electronical measurement but kept in addition the "analog" method to see if both curtrains run properly accros the whole frame. Device used for this method is called "light drum" or "stroboscope light drum". This is how measurement has been done, right photo show "master" to verify camera shutter. Lower photo shows the picure seen when using this device. This subject has been discussed alreday few times in english but as well german Forum but if youz have particular questions contact me per PN

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Thank you, @jerzy. If I've understood your picture correctly, these methods has to be used either through the back door of a M body or, for a LTM, you have to remove the body shell?

[250swb]

This thread has turned around to being incredibly informative, well done @jerzy! 

[jerzy]

vor 41 Minuten schrieb LocalHero1953:

If I've understood your picture correctly, these methods has to be used either through the back door of a M body or, for a LTM, you have to remove the body shell?

yes, this is how it needs to be done. Coming back to the pattern above - you will notice that the stripes on the right side are more flat (less sloppy) than on the left side. This is because speed of curtains increases when they run (this is mechanics). And if curtains are faster the slit needs to be a bit wider to have the same exposure timne. All this you cannot really measure using electronic shutter tester but you may see it when using light drum. How fast the curtains travel is set by spanning the springs, with the screws shown above you set the point when the closing curtain starts its travel, i.e this determines slit width.

[jerzy]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb 250swb:

This thread has turned around to being incredibly informative

thank you! In German part there is a thread about repairs, could be interesting as well, is howeve in German language

 

[LocalHero1953]

1 minute ago, jerzy said:

thank you! In German part there is a thread about repairs, could be interesting as well, is howeve in German language

 

Google translate is my friend!

[oldwino]

4 hours ago, qqphot said:

I'm certainly not going to touch it and will probably live with it rather than trying to get it fixed and have something else end up broken.

I disagree with this. If you don’t think the work was done correctly, you should contact Youxin and give him the chance to make it right. If there is indeed a problem. 

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[qqphot]

33 minutes ago, oldwino said:

I disagree with this. If you don’t think the work was done correctly, you should contact Youxin and give him the chance to make it right. If there is indeed a problem. 

Fair enough, but others in this thread are saying it's unreasonable to expect 1/1000 to work. I can certainly live without it and I was mostly interested in seeing if someone like jerzy would pipe up and explain how this sort of problem comes to be, which is just what happened and it's been pretty educational!  For what it's worth 1/1000 is pretty close to a stop faster than 1/500 on my IIIg, but I realize the shutter mechanisms differ.

[qqphot]

4 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

This thread made me wonder: how do professionals check the speeds of cloth focal plane shutters? 

I've seen the discussions of the rotating drum systems, but it occurs to me that thanks to the wonders of modern technology, you can probably do a good job of it using a smartphone these days. I discovered my samsung S10 has a "super slow mo" camera mode which captures the transit of the curtain slit across the frame in probably a couple dozen frames, and by estimating or counting pixels you could probably measure the gap width at different positions across the frame to a pretty good accuracy. If you knew what they "should" be it would be a good way to see the effect of adjustments. If nothing else it's interesting to watch!