Problems getting sharp images by 60MP

[harmen]

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Now some comparisons.

Edge of the blade at 100% for the 60MP

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Edge of the blade at 100% for the 18MP

Edge of the blade at about 50% for the 60MP to compare with the 18MP at similar magnification

Center for 60MP

Center for 18MP

[harmen]

If someone would like to do it at f/8, ISO 64, and ample light the results might be even clearer.  In short, 18MP at 100% shows less simply because you're looking less close.  For the full image there is no difference.

[Erato]

12 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

Erato pictures don’t look particularly sharp to me, now I don’t know if that’s this forums fault on how it compresses photos or if it’s because he shot handheld at 1/30 ahaha  either way, the M11 (and for that matter the M10M and M10R) are definitely easier to get blurry shots than the M9 / M240 / M10 where this was not even a problem you had to think about. 

The reason I said, "I guess that I'm lucky..." was because I won't bet my luck on each shot.

TBH, nearly 99% of my shots on the M10M or M10-P were precisely focused and recorded without any motion blur.

On that day, I mounted the 8-elements to the M11, approximately 3-5% came with motion blur within about 120 shots.

That's not a piece of good news to me.

Please refer to sample shots for 8-elements(against M10M/M10-P/SL2/M11) on page 436 for further reference.

 

[lct]

29 minutes ago, aristotle said:

As I said in that post, I tested the M11 for a day and took a variety of images under a variety of circumstances and treated shutter speed as I would with any other camera with a full-frame 35mm sensor with respect to focal length and shutter speed.   I did not specifically perform a test trying to show the equivalency of camera shake from the 60MP output vs 18MP output, but there really isn't any reason to do so.

Only one negligible reason: my question . 

[aristotle]

1 minute ago, lct said:

Only one negligible reason: my question . 

You certainly don't have to tell me, and you of course have the right to be concerned about anything that you want, but why is it important what it looks like when viewed at such a large magnification?

[Herr Barnack]

14 hours ago, TrickyMrT said:

...just wondering if anyone knows a usable solutions for handheld shots by lower shutterspeed?

Monopod.

[lct]

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45 minutes ago, aristotle said:

You certainly don't have to tell me, and you of course have the right to be concerned about anything that you want, but why is it important what it looks like when viewed at such a large magnification?

My question was about 18MP not 60MP. I need IBIS for a 42MP camera already so i don't expect to use the M11 at full res sans tripod anyway.

[scott kirkpatrick]

It's dark out, so to join i this discussion, I had to do quick copy shots of some indoor images. Shooting a book with a detailed graphic on the cover, using M11 and the 50 APO 2.0, while standing above the book, I could not quite get to 1/f speeds but could go below 1/2f consistently.  Shooting staionary images on a 4K screen, while sitting in a nice steady office chair with elbows braced, 1/6 second was possible (but not every time).  

 

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the game image is not quite 4K quality, so look for the pattern of the screen pixels.

Edited February 17, 2022 by scott kirkpatrick

[TrickyMrT]

4 hours ago, harmen said:

Now some comparisons.

Edge of the blade at 100% for the 60MP

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edge of the blade at 100% for the 18MP

Edge of the blade at about 50% for the 60MP to compare with the 18MP at similar magnification

Center for 60MP

Center for 18MP

Thank you harmen !

You nailed it!

With higher MP you get easy blurry images! My guess is that even little shakes make the M11 @60MP and lower shutterspeed near by unusable.

My quote of blurry images is around 8 of 10. Only if i setup a shutterspeed of 1/250 or higher i get it. But, ISO goes quick up to 6400 or more which gains noise!

What i loved on the M10 was to shoot with fast lenses at available light, with the M11 this has become a issue.

If i use for example my Q2 with IBIS, there is no issue in the same situations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LeicaR10]

TrickyMrT,  I sent you a PM.  r/ Mark

[idusidusi]

15 hours ago, KenTanaka said:

As an aside, is razor-sharpness what you really want? 

No

[M9reno]

28 minutes ago, TrickyMrT said:

Thank you harmen !

You nailed it!

With higher MP you get easy blurry images! My guess is that even little shakes make the M11 @60MP and lower shutterspeed near by unusable.

My quote of blurry images is around 8 of 10. Only if i setup a shutterspeed of 1/250 or higher i get it. But, ISO goes quick up to 6400 or more which gains noise!

What i loved on the M10 was to shoot with fast lenses at available light, with the M11 this has become a issue.

If i use for example my Q2 with IBIS, there is no issue in the same situations.

If you take three comparable photographs taken at identical shutter speeds by an M9, an M10, and an M11, print them at identical size and view them from an identical distance, you will not see any difference regarding camera shake.

The M11 at 60MP of course has resolution that invites cropping/printing at much larger size than the other two, until hand-held camera-shake might become apparent.  Same with the M10 over the M9.  But the fact remains that, printed at identical size, and viewed at identical distance, you will see no difference in that regard between output from the three sensors.

One could complain about file size, or say that 60MP is not needed, etc, but saying that the higher-res camera produces blurrier output is not comparing like to like.

 

[overexposed]

21 hours ago, TrickyMrT said:

Hi,
Who else has also had issues getting sharp images handheld @ 60MP? 
I'm only to get sharp images at a Shutterspeed of 1/250!

So is 60MP too much for an M system. With my M10 24MP, i can shoot by much lower Shutterspeed 1/30 and get sharp images.

I also tried to reduce it to 18MP, but no difference. 

Is anyone here with the same experience?

 

 

 

 

thats the reason why the gfx100 got IBIS

[lct]

1 hour ago, M9reno said:

But the fact remains that, printed at identical size, and viewed at identical distance, you will see no difference in that regard between output from the three sensors.

Good old theory i was missing it . Just kidding but yes of course now frankly whom is doing that bar a couple M11 users defending their gear? At least i don't. What i expect is getting sharp results as is out of my cameras. If it is a 6MP camera (my R-D1), at 6MP. A 10MP camera (my M8.2), at 10MP. A 24MP camera (my M240), at 24MP. A 42MP camera (my A7r2), at 42MP.... except that things become more difficult for me there. I mean i have steady hands for my age but i clearly see the difference between IBIS on and IBIS off at 42MP. But at least i have IBIS. Now what will happen at 60MP on a camera sans IBIS? I don't care because i know the answer already. But for newbies (or oldies) who don't, the answer is... motion blur of course unless your hands are as steady as a tripod. Reason why i was asking and still ask a simple (to me) question. When shooting at 18MP with the M11, may i expect the same sharp results i'd get with equivalent i.e. say 12MP to 24MP cameras w/o having to multiply my shutter speeds by two, three or more? Honest question.

[wizard]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb lct:

the answer is... motion blur ...

You have the same motion blur with your 6MP and 18MP and 24MP cameras. You just THINK you don't because due the lower resolution of those sensors you are unable to resolve the motion blur. In other words, detail resolution is not good enough to allow you to zoom into the digital output file far enough to detect the motion blur. With a 42MP and a 60MP sensor, you CAN zoom into the digital output file almost indefinitely, thus allowing to actually SEE the motion blur.

However, a printed image from a, say, 60MP sensor will not be less sharp than a printed image from a, say, 18MP sensor, if both prints are the same size. Only if you go for gigantic prints, you may see some difference. A giant print from a 60MP sensor may show somewhat fuzzy small detail (due to motion blur) whereas a giant print (same size) from a 18MP sensor will not show that small detail at all.

The above also answers your question regarding shooting the M11 at 18MP. You sacrifice resolution of very small detail, and therefore you will be unable to detect any motion blur of such very fine detail. The principle remains the same.

[TrickyMrT]

Here comes the point I'm struggling
On the one hand, I like to defeat my new M11. I like to keep it at any price! 
Like a beautiful woman, which is just a bit strange in lowlight situations  😂
 
It is not easy to conclude that the previews version was better in terms of low shutter-speed blurry image rate.
 
I tried to defeat the M11, but I saw the results, so I'm disappointed about the usable image rate. 
 
What now? Ignore it? Try to love it?
 
60MP without IBIS @ lower shutter-speed, handheld ==> Not well working with the M11 ( Probably it just me ( 42, steady heard-pulse around 65 ) ).
 
I make it short, I go back to my M10, and I can promise everyone that this is not easy for me! Because I'm so much willing to love the M11.

Finally, whatever camera type you use, it is only about is getting a lot of lovely images.

I am selling the M11 and waiting for an M11-S or M12 version with IBIS.

Thank you for all your great feedback.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[M9reno]

46 minutes ago, lct said:

Good old theory i was missing it . Just kidding but yes of course now frankly whom is doing that bar a couple M11 users defending their gear? At least i don't. What i expect is getting sharp results as is out of my cameras. If it is a 6MP camera (my R-D1), at 6MP. A 10MP camera (my M8.2), at 10MP. A 24MP camera (my M240), at 24MP. A 42MP camera (my A7r2), at 42MP.... except that things become more difficult for me there. I mean i have steady hands for my age but i clearly see the difference between IBIS on and IBIS off at 42MP. But at least i have IBIS. Now what will happen at 60MP on a camera sans IBIS? I don't care because i know the answer already. But for newbies (or oldies) who don't, the answer is... motion blur of course unless your hands are as steady as a tripod. Reason why i was asking and still ask a simple (to me) question. When shooting at 18MP with the M11, may i expect the same sharp results i'd get with equivalent i.e. say 12MP to 24MP cameras w/o having to multiply my shutter speeds by two, three or more? Honest question.

Wizard has just answered the question.  Resolution is not what determines "sharp results as-is" out-of-camera.  It's a number of other factors, including shutter speed, and especially how much you magnify the picture.

So, yes, if you want to magnify the image massively you will need a tripod or a very high shutter speed (which the M11 does allow you, especially on electronic shutter, more than any other M).

But given that magnifying is a free choice, that you can choose NOT to make, and that equally sized images from the M11 and the M10 will look exactly the same, it deserves in my view to be listed under the heading "features" rather than "problems".

[wizard]

vor einer Stunde schrieb TrickyMrT:

60MP without IBIS @ lower shutter-speed, handheld ==> Not well working with the M11

I had the chance to try out a M10R last September for a long weekend. I used my MATE exclusively, which means I had to resort to fairly long exposure times more often (or crank up ISO, which I tried to avoid as much as possible), given that some of the shots were taken in a dimly lit WWII tunnel in Wetzlar.

To make a long story short, when reviewing the results I was amazed at how well this combination worked down to 1/15s (some shots even longer exposure time). The results were perfectly usable, i.e. sharp, even when zooming into the output file at 200% or more. I knew I could achieve such results with my film-based M Leicas, but frankly was astonished that it was also possible with an 40MP+ digital camera without IBIS. So my personal experience was quite different from yours, and I found I could use a high MP M Leica just as I have always used my film M Leicas (save film loading, of course 🙂).

Edited February 17, 2022 by wizard
correction

[LocalHero1953]

The interesting question to me (as neither a M10R nor M11 owner) is not whether some users, with good health, eyesight and technique can take photos without blur, but whether it becomes an issue for the bulk of Leica's intended market for the M11 - that would certainly be a spur for Leica to introduce IBIS asap.

And it's not so much a question of whether you can tell the difference between a shot at 60mp and one at 18mp viewed at the same size, but whether those who buy the M11 to take advantage of the M11 for cropping (a selling point often mentioned in this forum) will see it. True Leica users never crop, of course, but Leica has to sell its cameras to all sorts of strange people these days, who might not be happy with the blur revealed by cropping.

Edited February 17, 2022 by LocalHero1953

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[wizard]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb LocalHero1953:

The interesting question to me (as neither a M10R nor M11 owner) is not whether some users, with good health, eyesight and technique can take photos without blur, but whether it becomes an issue for the bulk of Leica's intended market for the M11 - that would certainly be a spur for Leica to introduce IBIS asap.

There is no question that IF you want to take advantage of the full potential of any 60MP camera, either by making very large prints or by cropping, you will have to refine your technique. Which means trying to hold your camera as steady as you can, possibly with the help of pressing it against a non-moving object etc., using high shutter speeds wherever possible, and so on. Obviously, IBIS will help in achieving better results as far as user induced motion blur is concerned, as everyone who has ever used IBIS will certainly know.

Whether that means that Leica will introduce IBIS into their M line of cameras remains to be seen. As of now, IBIS would mean a thicker body, which many users do not like (as evidenced by Leica finally returning to the original M body thickness with the M10). If it is possible to integrate IBIS into an M body without any increase in body thickness, then I am sure Leica will do just that. Else, I am less convinced, as there are other alternatives for users requiring or simply desiring IBIS, and body thickness has proven to be a significant factor with M Leicas.