Lightweight Elmar: curious design feature

[Perceval]

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Tests confirm that my lightweight Elmar is not only lighter than the 4-element type but also noticeably superior in terms of resolution and contrast (at least at distance settings for landscapes).  However, it does have an odd design feature.  On its first outing I  screwed a filter in too tightly and, when I removed it, the front ring of the lens, with the aperture setting spot, unscrewed also.  This revealed  that the serial number and  other wording is printed on a loose plastic ring, which immediately blew away. I did recover it but replacing both parts so that the aperture spot was in the right place needed several tries. I suppose I could use superglue to hold everything in place but this might not be  a good idea (?).

Incidentally, there has been some discussion about the dates of the lightweight Elmar, with some people stating that it was only made after 1964.  The date on mine (assuming that the plastic ring is the one fitted when the lens was made) suggests 1962. Also, even though it  is different from the other 90mm Elmar in terms of number of elements, it is still marked as an Elmar.

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Perceval
typographical error

[elmars]

I can confirm that I am made in 1962, but certainly not lightweight.

Elmar

(Always angry with Leica using my name but paying nothing)

[adan]

2 hours ago, Perceval said:

Also, even though it  is different from the other 90mm Elmar in terms of number of elements, it is still marked as an Elmar.

After about 1960, Leitz/Leica standardized lens names based on maximum aperture, not necessarily an optical "type" or number of elements.

(Noctilux, once introduced = anything faster than f/1.4)
Summilux = f/1.4 (or at least faster than f/2.0)
Summarit = f/1.5, then repurposed for f/2.4-2.5 lenses ("in between" Summicrons and Elmarits) in the 1990s (Leica Minilux) and in 2006-7 the 35/50/75/90 lenses for the M mount
Summicron = f/2.0
Elmarit = f/2.8 - although the 50mm Elmar f/2.8 and 35mm f/2.8 Summaron kept their original names, since they existed before 1960, and it was not worth the trouble to rename them for the rest of their production life.
Elmar = anything slower than f/2.8

As to plastic rings, Leica did begin using those once structural-strength plastics became commercially available (cheaper and lighter). Some of the 1980s Canadian M lenses (28/35mm) are notorious for plastic connecting/locking rings that can fracture under rotary stress (such as removing stuck filters, or unmounting the lens by grabbing the large lens hoods on the front, instead of the lens itself).

The 3-element 90mm rigid came into existence along with the introduction of the 90 Tele-Elmarit f/2.8 (both 1964, per Erwin Puts). Between them, they reproduced 2 features of the single 90mm Elmar collapsible.

- The Tele-Elmarit was compact enough to fit in a standard camera case in place of a 50mm, like the collapsible Elmar, while adding 1 stop in speed. But as an early attempt at a telephoto design (physical length shorter than optical length of 90mm) it was slightly compromised in image quality. And also heavier by a few grams.

- The 3-element Elmar retained (actually improved on) the light weight and image quality of the 4-element (even with fewer elements - newer glass types and arrangement) - but was still too long to carry around in the regular camera case.

The optics in either case came from the lens lab at Leitz Canada. One chose between them according to goals and needs and desires.

[a.noctilux]

Are we talking about this Elmar 4/90 as "3 elements" ?

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In the Wiki 300 g seems heavy comparing to my 2.8/90mm T-E thin 225 g

Is it light weight or Wiki is wrong ?

OP please weight your Elmar, if / when you can ... then please tell us the real weight without cap or hood.

[adan]

19 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

In the Wiki 300 g seems heavy comparing to my 2.8/90mm T-E thin 225 g

You are aware of the large weight difference between the original 1964 90 Tele-Elmarit (355g) and the 1974 90TE-M revision (225g)?

The discussion is about 1960s lenses, given that the three-element was made for a whopping total of 2 years, 1964-65.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/90mm_f/2.8_Tele-Elmarit

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https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/90mm_f/2.8_Tele-Elmarit-M

The wiki is about right for both - although one never knows if the weights are with or without lens caps.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by adan

[M11 for me]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb elmars:

I can confirm that I am made in 1962, but certainly not lightweight.

Elmar

(Always angry with Leica using my name but paying nothing)

So you will be 60 years young this year. Did I calculate correctly? Anyway I congratulate you to your 60. 

[elmars]

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Thank You. I am already 60. same birthday as Elvis. He wasn‘t lightweight too in his older days. 

[Perceval]

My lightweight, three-element 90mm  f4 Elmar has s/n 1920XXX, which means it was made in 1962.  It weighs 219g.  I also have a 1961 four-element  90mm f4 Elmar which weighs 251g and is about a centimetre longer.  They are both capable of producing excellent photographs although, at average current used prices, the lightweight costs about £450 more.  I think it was Edward Steichen who said that no photographer is as good as the simplest camera so, no contest if I decide to sell one!  Actually, Leica prices in the UK have rocketed recently, while many bodies/lenses are just not available to buy anywhere.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Perceval
spelling error

[UliWer]

300g in Wiki for the 3-elements Elmar is wrong, without caps my 2424xxx weighs 225, with front and rear caps it's 245g. 

[Perceval]

There still seems to be some debate as to the date and origin  of the Lightweight Elmar.  I can confirm that mine was made in 1962 - in WETZLAR.  See photograph.

 

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[adan]

5 hours ago, Perceval said:

I can confirm that mine was made in 1962 - in WETZLAR.  See photograph.

How does the photograph confirm the date of manufacture?

If you are going by the serial number, be aware that Leitz/Leica pre-assigned serial numbers in batches - "the next 3000 90mm f/4.0 Elmars we make will have serial numbers from (perhaps) 1918001 to 1921000.

If it takes 2-3 years to make and sell the 3000 lenses using that batch of numbers, then there will be lenses made in 1964 carrying a S/N pre-issued in 1962. It just depends on how popular a lens type is and how fast it sells. The 90mm Elmars sold about 1500 units per year ±.

And, not being wasteful, Leitz would continue to use the same pre-assigned number sequence even if there was a version change.

To quote from Laney's Leica Collectors Guide, "A new three-element layout, made possible by new glasses, was quietly introduced in 1964 without any change in name or catalogue numbers."

I've had at least three early 90mm Summicrons v.3, first produced in 1980, that had serial numbers "from" 1976 - 277xxxx range. 90mm rangefinder lenses did not sell very quickly, once SLRs entered the picture.

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by adan

[PMCK]

I want to sell my three-element Elmar so I guess I will have to tell prospective buyers that, although the serial number suggests 1962 as the year of manufacture, the lens was made in 1964 or later.  Adan's news is a little disappointing; my wife bought me as a birthday present, a 135mm Hektor - the serial number suggesting it was  made in the year I was born (1941)  but  it could have been made much earlier than that.  

Edward Steichen: No photographer is as good as the simplest camera. 

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

In his "Leica Guide III", on page 28, Jim lager has a photo of: 3 element 90mm f4 Elmar #1920583, which he dates to 1962.

In Leica & Leicaflex Lenses", on page 81, Gianni Rogliatti writes that the 3 element 90mm f4 Elmar was made until 1968.

Please remember that over time there has been no shortage of Leitz/Leica equipment that has been produced out of the parameters of what is expected.

Best Regards,

Michael

[pippy]

On 3/22/2022 at 4:37 PM, adan said:

...If you are going by the serial number, be aware that Leitz/Leica pre-assigned serial numbers in batches...

+1.

According to its serial number my M-mount 50mm f1.5 Summarit was made before M cameras even existed. Foresight indeed!

Philip.