bags27 Posted February 4, 2022 Share #1 Posted February 4, 2022 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Photoshop continues to improve its AI. One of the things I've noticed is how under Select, "sky" has gotten so much more accurate. Here is a photo I took recently with a Rollei 6008i 80mm planar Tri-X in Pyrocat HD (14 min, I think). It had little work in post. The second version includes Select/Sky and darkened the sky with brightness/contrast. The whole thing took maybe 10 seconds. Sure, Select/Sky waffled on the tricky branches on the right and there's a bit of imprecision along the left side of the tower, sort of a halo effect. It's not yet ready for primetime. But it's getting closer. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited February 4, 2022 by bags27 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/329461-do-we-need-a-red-filter-much-longer/?do=findComment&comment=4376075'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 4, 2022 Posted February 4, 2022 Hi bags27, Take a look here Do we need a red filter much longer?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
bags27 Posted February 4, 2022 Author Share #2 Posted February 4, 2022 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/329461-do-we-need-a-red-filter-much-longer/?do=findComment&comment=4376076'>More sharing options...
Aryel Posted February 4, 2022 Share #3 Posted February 4, 2022 (edited) My two cents: We (at least I) definitely still need the red filter: no matter what you do in post, a red filter can help you save the clouds whilst keeping the rest of the scene properly exposed. If the highlights are blown, or the shadows clipped, no matter what you do in post you won’t recover. A.I is getting better but won’t save these (can replace them but that is a different story). ps: as you rightly pointed out, the devil is in the details too. Edited February 4, 2022 by Aryel 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted February 4, 2022 Share #4 Posted February 4, 2022 You could have used Levels maybe to help keep the separation between dark sky and white clouds? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotoklaus Posted February 4, 2022 Share #5 Posted February 4, 2022 Higlights darkened, 5 Seconds: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! But what you got is more grain in the sky and also darker clouds, not the effect of dark sky and bright clouds as using ared or orange filter. If you want to have proper filter effects in PS you nedd to shoot colour, convert to B&W and then you can use the colour mixers for filter effects like red, green and so on. 2 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! But what you got is more grain in the sky and also darker clouds, not the effect of dark sky and bright clouds as using ared or orange filter. If you want to have proper filter effects in PS you nedd to shoot colour, convert to B&W and then you can use the colour mixers for filter effects like red, green and so on. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/329461-do-we-need-a-red-filter-much-longer/?do=findComment&comment=4376254'>More sharing options...
madNbad Posted February 4, 2022 Share #6 Posted February 4, 2022 A red filter is still important for those who wet print or use software other than Photoshop. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bags27 Posted February 4, 2022 Author Share #7 Posted February 4, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) For people who really understand Photoshop--I am definitely not one of them--there are already multiple step ways to get what you want. But post-processing is the least enjoyable part of the entire hybrid process (shooting, developing, scanning, post-processing) for me, so I refrain from any deep dive. I've tried Select/Sky on a number of different situations, and I can't remember being thoroughly pleased with any of them. Red filters still rule for me. But self-driving cars are coming eventually and so is Select/Sky. 🙂 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 4, 2022 Share #8 Posted February 4, 2022 I’m either stupid or lazy - I prefer to get it as right as I can on the film (same with digital), so the best composition, the best focus and the best exposure are the rule for me at the start. That means I’ll be carrying my ND filters, polarisers and colour filters for the foreseeable future. The advantage I see is that this approach gets me thinking about the image at the right moment - when I take the picture, rather than making fine adjustment and correcting errors in front of a computer screen. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erato Posted February 5, 2022 Share #9 Posted February 5, 2022 Filters are mainly for enhancing gray contrast and tonal separation. Color filters help the photographer control the gray conversion of the colors such that there is always an adequate and optimized contrast. In computer science, garbage in, garbage out (GIGO) is the concept that flawed, or nonsense (garbage) input data produces nonsense output. Rubbish in, rubbish out (RIRO) is an alternate wording. It was popular in the early days of computer science but also applies today when powerful computers can produce large amounts of erroneous data or information in a short time. The underlying principle was noted by the inventor of the first programmable computing device design: On two occasions I have been asked, "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. — Charles Babbage, Passages from the Life of a Philosopher 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 5, 2022 Share #10 Posted February 5, 2022 I've never owned or needed a red filter, for film or now with Monochrom. Nothing stronger than orange, if that. Aesthetic preference. I like early prints of Adams' Moonrise far more than his later, increasingly dramatic skies, re-printed over 34 years. Most folks go for high contrast, but I find the initial impact doesn't wear well and prefer subtlety. Different strokes.... Same with color channels and related adjustments in PP. Easy does it, for me. Jeff 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aryel Posted February 5, 2022 Share #11 Posted February 5, 2022 5 hours ago, bags27 said: But self-driving cars are coming eventually and so is Select/Sky. 🙂 I agree with you that select sky is going to improve and get better to a point where it will certainly work in most cases. However, you will still need to account for this when you expose. If you blow out the sky, you will need to replace it. If you do not blow out the sky, you may lose some shadows (this seems to be the case on your photo, maybe due to my phone). Finally, you may end up on a corner case where the a.i fails. What I am trying to say is, even with a perfect sky selected, you will be better off if you got it right during the exposure. In any case, I got my vaccine shot 18 months ago when I set up my darkroom 😋. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 5, 2022 Share #12 Posted February 5, 2022 The bad masking around the tree branches and the building would not be acceptable to me and any value that might have been found in the retouched version is instantly lost Sorry, it’s not for me! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bags27 Posted February 5, 2022 Author Share #13 Posted February 5, 2022 38 minutes ago, Ouroboros said: The bad masking around the tree branches and the building would not be acceptable to me and any value that might have been found in the retouched version is instantly lost Sorry, it’s not for me! I agree. I was demonstrating why is, in fact, not acceptable yet. Still. the select tool, driving by AI, is remarkably fast and does almost work in certain, less challenging circumstances. Tree branches and hair are among the hardest subjects for post-processing to get right. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 5, 2022 Share #14 Posted February 5, 2022 49 minutes ago, bags27 said: I agree. I was demonstrating why is, in fact, not acceptable yet. Still. the select tool, driving by AI, is remarkably fast and does almost work in certain, less challenging circumstances. Tree branches and hair are among the hardest subjects for post-processing to get right. There are far more accomplished apps for complex selections such as PortraitPro. The thing with any retouching is that as soon poor technique is obvious, the image is usually reduced to crap. No doubt this option will improve with future updates but it has a good way to go yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stray cat Posted February 5, 2022 Share #15 Posted February 5, 2022 11 hours ago, IkarusJohn said: I’m either stupid or lazy - I prefer to get it as right as I can on the film (same with digital), so the best composition, the best focus and the best exposure are the rule for me at the start. That means I’ll be carrying my ND filters, polarisers and colour filters for the foreseeable future. The advantage I see is that this approach gets me thinking about the image at the right moment - when I take the picture, rather than making fine adjustment and correcting errors in front of a computer screen. I'm with John here. Previsualization of the final picture is most always there the moment I trip the shutter. It is also a matter of having a certain set of skills gained over years that puts a certain impramatur on work we do ourselves as opposed to having a computer do it for us. After all, is the picture what WE want, or will we be happy with what the computer decides we should have? For me, there's a significant difference. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted February 5, 2022 Share #16 Posted February 5, 2022 6 hours ago, bags27 said: I agree. I was demonstrating why is, in fact, not acceptable yet. Still. the select tool, driving by AI, is remarkably fast and does almost work in certain, less challenging circumstances. Tree branches and hair are among the hardest subjects for post-processing to get right. yep, Luminar is way better Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giannis Posted February 5, 2022 Share #17 Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) Technology is great when it makes life easier. That said, I don't think it has much to do with red filtration. Those dramatic, almost black skies have traditionally been created - for the most part - in the darkroom and not just with a red filter. They're an excellent usecase for doing a burn with a grade 5 filter, dramatically darkening the sky while keeping the clouds white. Red filter still is very useful for tonal separation and tonal contrast. Say for instance a football match, where one team's uniform is blue stripes on white, the other's red stripes on white. A panchromatic film will make them near indistinguishable! With a red filter, you have the first team showing up as black and white stripes, the other as almost uniform white, very easy to tell apart. Same for nature where colourful flowers are involved, or wildlife. Or portraiture, when you want to get rid of imperfections (red patches, pimples etc.) or give an alabaster, ethereal look in caucasian skintones. Contrast filtration is still useful for monochrome capture, and that's why they're called contrast filters and not sky filters: skies are only one application of contrast filtration. Edited February 5, 2022 by giannis typo 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 5, 2022 Share #18 Posted February 5, 2022 24 minutes ago, giannis said: Those dramatic, almost black skies have traditionally been created - for the most part - in the darkroom Not really.... That would mean a large amount of dodging and burning. It was - and is - far more effective to use a red filter - with superior results too. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 5, 2022 Share #19 Posted February 5, 2022 On 2/4/2022 at 3:10 AM, bags27 said: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Those Halos can be quickly removed using the clone tool set to "darken". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 5, 2022 Share #20 Posted February 5, 2022 12 hours ago, Ouroboros said: The bad masking around the tree branches and the building would not be acceptable to me and any value that might have been found in the retouched version is instantly lost Sorry, it’s not for me! Partly the technique - the select sky tool has settings - probably the feathering was set too wide. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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