Help me understand....Q2M, why?

[Anakronox]

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Yeah, this is all very subjective and depends on one’s priorities.  Purely monochrome sensors are the best for me and how I work and post-process.  Simple as that.  Anyone who claims that they are objectively worse or better is simply operating from confirmation bias of their own methods and preferences.  Those who want a single camera that shoots color and will convert to black and white when they want?  Great, those are available.  Use those.  For us who enjoy the constraints and limitations of digital monochrome and mono film stocks - we have those options and use them.  We are all fortunate to be spoiled with such choices.  But stating that monochrome cameras are a “failure” or “clearly the worse choice” isn’t constructive.  It’s hyperbole at best and misleading and disingenuous.  

[nwphil]

2 hours ago, Anakronox said:

Yeah, this is all very subjective and depends on one’s priorities.  Purely monochrome sensors are the best for me and how I work and post-process.  Simple as that.  Anyone who claims that they are objectively worse or better is simply operating from confirmation bias of their own methods and preferences.  Those who want a single camera that shoots color and will convert to black and white when they want?  Great, those are available.  Use those.  For us who enjoy the constraints and limitations of digital monochrome and mono film stocks - we have those options and use them.  We are all fortunate to be spoiled with such choices.  But stating that monochrome cameras are a “failure” or “clearly the worse choice” isn’t constructive.  It’s hyperbole at best and misleading and disingenuous.  

well said !

after all it's about photography ... and both b&w and color! cameras allow us to achieve the results we seek 

on the funny side of things, how controversial (and silly) would  a passionate b&w puristbe to say that he can convert his shots to color, and they are as good if not better than a true color sensor ..lol ? can you image the uproar if such blasphemy?

Edited February 15, 2022 by nwphil

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, nwphil said:

on the funny side of things, how controversial (and silly) would  a passionate b&w puristbe to say that he can convert his shots to color, and they are as good if not better than a true color sensor ..lol ? can you image the uproar if such blasphemy?

Don't tempt me - I only need to buy a blue filter to do so

[mick787]

I really struggled as to whether I should buy one. I wanted to see the results between one and a converted colour image and a monochrome infra red image. I couldn't get to see any comparison between all three variants. It was a factor given the cost of a Q2M, but the simple fact was I just couldn't get the idea out of my head. When I found a used model up for sale and the wife was in a good mood I bought it. I can say that for my eyesight it really does produce the best b+w out of the three options. I fully accept that my converted infra red camera doesn't have the same number of pixels but it does produce a better b+w image than one converted from a colour image. The Q2M, for me is by far the best b+w image and it loves going outside when the weather is bad, whereas the infra red camera needs sunlight. I don't regret buying it apart from having to upgrade my post image software for its files.

[nicci78]

14 hours ago, nwphil said:

well.....a different view for sure. Surprised editing miss the spelling. A "lesser" careful choice of words here and there, and the creme-de-la-creme  ( because there are so many other pointless points, including the conclusion paragraph: "color photographs are better to make black and whites

it will be very obvious that some people will relate with the article - That's fine, it won't change my opinion, and the whole article is nothing I have not heard before

Only thing I can't figure out is out to see which pictures were indeed taken with the Q2 - some are obvious; with others there is some filter and P&P involved, thus less obvious

In the end, the writer obvious does not understand the Q2M....😎

The writer was a little tongue in cheek : absolutely every single B&W photos from its article were from Q2. none from Q2 Monochrom.  But I think that he really understand Monochrom, hence why he loves colour channel editing. 

I used to own an M Monochrom, marvellous camera, stupidly exchanged for M-P typ 240 due to sensor corrosion.  I use it with several colour filters. Love it. It was really superior to M9 in every regards. 

With my colour cameras I got used to colour channel editing, it is hard to back to optical colour filters.

Therefor today M10 Monochrom is excellent, but it does not make a meaningful difference with M10-R. Especially without the abilty to alter colour channels. 

Q2 Monochrom is better than Q2 in high ISO, but I will never exchange awesome Q2 colour for Q2 mono. And I will never own both. It is stupid to have twice the same camera and twice the same point of view. 

Monochrom may have more sense in the form of interchangeable lens secondary camera with a nice selection of optical colour filters. Without them you are losing a lot of creative abilities. But it is easier with colour camera to achieve our preferred look. 

 

NB : original has more caracter due to CCD sensor. So its B&W rendering is very unique. But it is not the case anymore since CMOS M Monochrom typ 246 or M10 Monochrom or Q2 Mono. 

 

 

Of course it does not mean that Monochrom are bad. I am glad that they still exist. I just move on. And found less appeal to them as colour cameras are getting better and better : wide dynamic range, higher resolution, cleaner very high resolution, better colour accurancy( which yield to better B&W conversion) All those improvements are eating into Monochrom core advantages. Making them more and more a niche products. Just like M-D typ 262 or M10-D not being able to display the photo shot. Not being able to shoot colour is now MONO main raison d'être. 

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by nicci78

[Simone_DF]

5 hours ago, nwphil said:

on the funny side of things, how controversial (and silly) would  a passionate b&w puristbe to say that he can convert his shots to color, and they are as good if not better than a true color sensor ..lol ? can you image the uproar if such blasphemy?

Just leaving this here 🤣

https://petapixel.com/2022/02/14/new-ai-colorization-offers-a-more-lifelike-window-into-the-past/

[Delboy72]

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On 2/12/2022 at 2:30 PM, acg69 said:

May be so, but what you describe can be had with a color camera switched to mono, i.e. the Q2 shooting B&W. The output is a different story and there, for obvious technical reasons explained many times, the Q2M is better than the Q2. I think we had an extensive discussion in another thread on this, where there was a big discussion about whether the Q2M puts you in a different mindset just by virtue of not being able to see in color through the EVF; I subscribe to the other view, the one that says the difference in ONLY in the output. To answer there original question, if one shoots ONLY B&W there is an advantage to using the Q2M over the Q2 (technical advantage that is, leading to better IQ) but in most other use cases (save for needing to shoot in very low light), the Q2 is more versatile. For me, shooting both color and B&W, the Q2M makes no sense obviously and I am perfectly happy with the results I get from post, color sliders and all:)

I take your point acg69. Perhaps I should have added that I like the constraint of being able to shoot only with black and white as I did with film in the 60s and 70s.  I have a CL when I want to take colour.

[Anakronox]

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

Don't tempt me - I only need to buy a blue filter to do so

Doooooooo iiiiiiiittttttt!

[Alan Friedman]

44 minutes ago, Delboy72 said:

I take your point acg69. Perhaps I should have added that I like the constraint of being able to shoot only with black and white as I did with film in the 60s and 70s.  I have a CL when I want to take colour.

I would guess that most Q2M owners resemble this statement and have other cameras for other days and other purposes. Having both Q2 and Q2M doesn't make much sense - for me the Q2M was the easy choice. There are many ways to skin the general purpose camera cat - in my bag, the SL2-s for sensitivity (and same interface and batteries as the Q2M) and the quirky Sigma Fp-L for small size and high resolution... and an M8 when I want a CCD sensor and a reminder of classic Leica rangefinder ethos.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Alan Friedman

[robnyc1]

Last night with the Q2M I was shooting street photography at 100K ISO, f/5.6 and 1/250s with wonderful results

I could zone focus and shoot from the hip just as if I was shooting in broad daylight. That is absolutely insane to think about. 

[nicci78]

I think the answer is quite easy. 
Person #1 who bought Q2 Mono : obviously Q2 Monochrom is superior for B&W : better tonality and cleaner high ISO  

Person #2 who bought Q2 colour: Q2 is superior because it allows better control over tonality through colour channel mixing. 
 

We are all biased with our purchase. After unloading +5K I will defend my new toy until I sell it to another lad. 
😉😙😌

So don’t worry just enjoy the tool you bought. Once you get it, it will be the best no matter what. 
Because the truth is that Q2 and Q2 Monochrom are both capable of beautiful B&W. 

BTW : M10 Monochrom is better than Q2 Monochrom. And M10-R has similar high ISO output to Q2 Mono.
So you know what to buy  🙃

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by nicci78

[hdmesa]

46 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

I think the answer is quite easy. 
Person #1 who bought Q2 Mono : obviously Q2 Monochrom is superior for B&W : better tonality and cleaner high ISO  

Person #2 who bought Q2 colour: Q2 is superior because it allows better control over tonality through colour channel mixing. 
 

We are all biased with our purchase. After unloading +5K I will defend my new toy until I sell it to another lad. 
😉😙😌

So don’t worry just enjoy the tool you bought. Once you get it, it will be the best no matter what. 
Because the truth is that Q2 and Q2 Monochrom are both capable of beautiful B&W. 

BTW : M10 Monochrom is better than Q2 Monochrom. And M10-R has similar high ISO output to Q2 Mono.
So you know what to buy  🙃

 

 

 

Some of us have had both, and I agree they are both great cameras. I had a Q2M first but now only have the Q2 Reporter. Q2M is slightly superior for IQ and tonality, but it is far superior for high-ISO unless you're ok with the artifacts that can be created when using AI-based noise reduction to make the Q2 perform reasonably over ISO 6400. The Q2M low noise at high-ISO is superior even to my GFX 100S, so I don't buy the statement that the M10-R high-ISO is anywhere close to the Q2M (I also owned the M10-R in the past).

In a perfect world, I would like to use my Q2 in good light and also have a Q2M for low light, but that's not a reasonable option for most of us – not necessarily because of cost but because of the limitation of having two fixed lens cameras with the same FOV.

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by hdmesa

[jaapv]

On 2/14/2022 at 9:30 PM, nicci78 said:

https://reddotcamera.net/leica/q2/vs-leica-q2-monochrom/

 

interesting view about Q2 Monochrom 

Can you please help me? Where is the Wiggle slider in LR?

[nicci78]

12 hours ago, jaapv said:

Can you please help me? Where is the Wiggle slider in LR?

Don’t know what a wiggle slider is for LR. It only exists on Premiere Pro. 

The author just means that we can tweak tonalities in more different ways with Q2 than Q2 Monochrom 

Edited March 2, 2022 by nicci78

[fontilan]

Back to the orginal question. My purchase of a Q2M was about a challenge to refine my approach combined with pure extravegence.

I previously predominantly shot mono with a colour camera so the ethos behind the existence of a Q2M resonated. It's niche but it was my niche.

The urge to own a Leica wasn't really a factor. I knew what I was getting though: a low risk, well built, simple bit of kit.

Could I afford it? No.

Could I justify it? No.

Did I need it? No.

Did I want it? Yes.

Eventually that final answer just gets to you.

 

Has it made me a better photographer?

I actually think that by focussing on only black & white, removing many distractions and filters and settings it has made me consider more what I was taking, why and how. My workflow is more streamlined and my mind far less cluttered. That peace of mind and renewed approach makes it worth the purchase.

 

[nicci78]

This what Q2 can do on post processing that Q2 Monochrom can’t, except with colour filters used beforehand. 
 

One colour photo : different tonality choice with colour mixer tool in LRC. With a real Monochrom you’ll have to choose a colour filter and accept its inherent tonality. 
Second image is just simple desaturation. Something more alike to Monochrom filter less. 
 

colour channel mixer is your wiggle slider 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited March 2, 2022 by nicci78

[fontilan]

Whilst I miss the colour sliders in monocrom files, such changes can still be acheived in the light settings in Lightroom.

Monchrom files mean that colour isn't a factor throughout, its all about shades of grey in the compostion and the edit. The sky was never blue, the grass was never green.

[nicci78]

Not like that and not that easily without time consuming masking for exemple. 

Of course you can also dodge and burn like the old days of B&W film. It won't be as easy than awesome colour mix. 

Easiest way it to use an optical colour filter with Monochrom

I used to own an M Monochrom for years, I know pretty well how to edit them. Ultimately I gave up post processing for a careful choice of colour filters. Orange being my favourite and light red my most spectacular (somewhat gimmicky). Yellow being very subtle. 

Ultimately using colour filter is not that easy. You have to set up a choice of lenses with the same filter size. I settled with E46 : SEM 21, Summicron 28, Summilux 50 asph, Elmarit 90mm and Tele-Elmarit 135 (E46 variant)

 

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by nicci78

[fontilan]

I understand.

I think I need to try a colour filter and it seems orange is the best all-rounder. The big question: is premium I’d pay for a Leica filter worth it? What’s an equivalent cheaper version and is there any compromise?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica Q

[jaapv]

10 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Don’t know what a wiggle slider is for LR. It only exists on Premiere Pro. 

The author just means that we can tweak tonalities in more different ways with Q2 than Q2 Monochrom 

I know how to visualize a 
B&W image, use filters on my lens and brushes in PS.