What Barnack should I buy ?

[Jul]

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On 1/30/2022 at 12:28 PM, a.noctilux said:

with Leica IIIf and IIIg, Leitz did add a clever device to push in the film when loading .

T device attached to base plate

The second picture from post #32 shows it

I don't know whether all of the If have it as well but at least some of them do. The If is a nice second body to pair with either a Summaron 2.8cm 1:5.6 or a Super-Angulon 2.1cm 1:4.

[robert_parker]

There is a lot of really good information here.

If I add a little from my perspective, I've owned a number of Barnack cameras, starting out with a Leica 111f Red Dial which was my second ever Leica camera (Digilux 1 being the first) which I paired with a Red Scale Elmar 50mm lens; the camera has the advantage of modern shutter speeds and is very usable in a modern context.

I currently have an 'O' Serie and a slightly wild but barely used 11f Red Dial, which was non functional when I purchased it but was heroically put into service, probably for the first time ever, by Malcolm Taylor here in the UK, after many years as a pseudo-museum piece in Copenhagen and which had what I believe was its first full roll of film though it during the Leica Forum's One Challenge in Seville.

Interestingly, a number of people have referred to a Barnack which I really enjoyed and rate very highly, which is the Leica 11, my favourite version being the black paint one with nickel fittings.  The version that I owned felt compact and very comfortable in the hand and having been CLA'd so that the rangefinder was bright and accurate, was a joy to use, coupled in my case to a nickel Summar 2.0 lens of a similar age, despite the fact that I own both the millennium versions of the 50 'lux and 35 'cron from 1999.

The serial number of the camera indicated that the body was made in 1927 - much earlier than the production of the Leica 11 began, so I infer that it may have started life as a Leica 1 or maybe a Leica Standard which was converted to rangefinder use after the 11 came out.

I think post #7 shows a similar camera, which may have been converted from an earlier model.

I think the big message is that they are all fun to use and are all capable of images on film that can meet the highest of standards - at the start I would be prepared to factor in a good, sympathetic CLA from an expert, so that you have your camera working to the best of its potential.

Edited February 6, 2022 by robert_parker

[Kl@usW.]

Am 29.1.2022 um 22:33 schrieb willeica:

The Summaron is lovely compact lens which gives great results if you can find a good copy. 

I had forgotten about my LHSA You Tube Zoom from 2020 about Choosing and Using Old Leicas. The link is in this article.

https://www.macfilos.com/2020/08/26/leica-cameras-of-the-20th-century-a-video-presentation-from-noted-expert-william-fagan/

In the Zoom I chose my IIf Red Dial as one of my favourite post war LTM cameras. It has 1/1000th top speed, but no slow speeds. You will note that I say I prefer to have nothing under my right hand when gripping the camera and I don't use the slow speeds anyway.

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Also in the talk I say that while I have an ABLON I don't use it and I prefer to just use scissors which suits me perfectly.

There is a lot more in the video.

William

 

 

 

William, great talk and very useful information !  No language problem either.    Since you were and are so generous with your advice--same for the other members- let me tell you what happened: I bought a clean chrome Elmar 2,5 /50 thinking it was a good start.  Then, looking for a body I came along a nice combo of a IIIf rd but with an Elmar 3,5/50 red scale attached to it... now, having that Elmar already  I looked around for another body  and found a very nice cla´d IIf from a reliable source...   Now I'm  waiting for the delivery of the bodies. 

Btw: getting a clean 35 Summaron seems to be a lot more difficult: there are many  Summarons on the market--but most of them are flawed by haze. Even the ones labelled "mint".  I asked an experienced technician about the haze and he told me that the oil used in  the aperture part of the lens seems to first cover, then disintegrate the coating and that in some cases he had to polish off the coating to get rid of the haze.... so buying a haze lens and having it cleaned might work, but not for sure. 

For the  moment I´ll wait and see how far I get with just an 50 mm lens.. 

Am 30.1.2022 um 11:59 schrieb Anbaric:

Even the vintage copies seem pretty expensive nowadays, though not as bad as the ABLON, which costs about as much as the cameras. A home made one like yours would be a nice project for anyone with access to the tools! I'm a bit surprised one of the companies that sells things like lens hoods from China on ebay hasn't made a cheap metal copy - it's no more specialised than some of the things they do make, like the SNHOO E39 adapter that only fits the Summitar. I recently found a modern cutting template, the UNX-8624,  in the Meister range from UN in Japan:

https://www.un-ltd.co.jp/unx-8624-en/

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be widely available outside Japan, though I've spotted it selling for an inflated price on ebay. There is also the Photonbox plastic version:

http://www.photonbox.com/filmtrimmer.html

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154808435167

and, as well as the conventional design mikemgb mentions, some odd looking 3D printed things that turn up on ebay and elsewhere:

https://cameractive.shop/products/leica-ablon-film-trimmer

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255255735074

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203804827470

 

Very useful links, anbaric. Thank you. The photonbox trimmer seems nice; I´ll try to get one of these . 

Am 30.1.2022 um 12:28 schrieb a.noctilux:

Credit card loading trick discussion which we can see stating 28 holes !

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/loading-an-old-leica.171389/

 

As side note, with Leica IIIf and IIIg, Leitz did add a clever device to push in the film when loading .

T device attached to base plate, but when I use the device with modern film, this not always work.

 

I understand that the cutting of the leader is important--but I don't understand why it is important technically ? what happens if I just load the film into the body as it is cut ---carefully of course-- have it aligned with the sprockets of the transport roll.... ? 

vor 13 Stunden schrieb Jul:

The second picture from post #32 shows it

I don't know whether all of the If have it as well but at least some of them do. The If is a nice second body to pair with either a Summaron 2.8cm 1:5.6 or a Super-Angulon 2.1cm 1:4.

Absolutly, Jul. I have an MD-2 and like the experience of using it with the Summaron M-28 or the S-Angulon M 4/21. Prefocussed, estimated frame.... fun ! 

Not so funny are the prices asked for the LTM Angulon 4/21 and the Summaron 5,6/28 LTM..... 

vor 6 Stunden schrieb robert_parker:

There is a lot of really good information here.

If I add a little from my perspective, I've owned a number of Barnack cameras, starting out with a Leica 111f Red Dial which was my second ever Leica camera (Digilux 1 being the first) which I paired with a Red Scale Elmar 50mm lens; the camera has the advantage of modern shutter speeds and is very usable in a modern context.

I currently have an 'O' Serie and a slightly wild but barely used 11f Red Dial, which was non functional when I purchased it but was heroically put into service, probably for the first time ever, by Malcolm Taylor here in the UK, after many years as a pseudo-museum piece in Copenhagen and which had what I believe was its first full roll of film though it during the Leica Forum's One Challenge in Seville.

Interestingly, a number of people have referred to a Barnack which I really enjoyed and rate very highly, which is the Leica 11, my favourite version being the black paint one with nickel fittings.  The version that I owned felt compact and very comfortable in the hand and having been CLA'd so that the rangefinder was bright and accurate, was a joy to use, coupled in my case to a nickel Summar 2.0 lens of a similar age, despite the fact that I own both the millennium versions of the 50 'lux and 35 'cron from 1999.

The serial number of the camera indicated that the body was made in 1927 - much earlier than the production of the Leica 11 began, so I infer that it may have started life as a Leica 1 or maybe a Leica Standard which was converted to rangefinder use after the 11 came out.

I think post #7 shows a similar camera, which may have been converted from an earlier model.

I think the big message is that they are all fun to use and are all capable of images on film that can meet the highest of standards - at the start I would be prepared to factor in a good, sympathetic CLA from an expert, so that you have your camera working to the best of its potential.

Robert, thank you for your input. As said, for starters I have decided on two bodies on the more modern end of the LTM spectrum and I will start from there and see where the journey will lead me to... Maybe some day a nice old  black nickel will call my name ? 😇   I fully agree on your advice to invest in good CLA  from an expert:   that's´just what I will be doing. 

[a.noctilux]

Why cutting longer leader ?

I think that because of the construction of the camera to be as strong as possible, so no opening back.

With open back, we can see if the film holes are catching with the teeth gear when advancing the film, while loading.

Without open back, the film leader can be fed at false places, not aligning with the teeth, or worse going on the shutter blind (why "card loading trick" to prevent this).

When we load with longer leader, so many turns on the receiving cassette,  tendency to be aligned with the gear is far greater than

tendency of film to be catched somewhere else.

[Kl@usW.]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb a.noctilux:

Why cutting longer leader ?

I think that because of the construction of the camera to be as strong as possible, so no opening back.

With open back, we can see if the film holes are catching with the teeth gear when advancing the film, while loading.

Without open back, the film leader can be fed at false places, not aligning with the teeth, or worse going on the shutter blind (why "card loading trick" to prevent this).

When we load with longer leader, so many turns on the receiving cassette,  tendency to be aligned with the gear is far greater than

tendency of film to be catched somewhere else.

thank you, a.noctilux. I need to see that in real life. I expect my IIIf to be back from CLA in 2-3 weeks, then I´ll have a close look

[frame-it]

ill drop this in here,...just in case

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by frame-it

[a.noctilux]

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14 minutes ago, Kl@usW. said:

thank you, a.noctilux. I need to see that in real life. I expect my IIIf to be back from CLA in 2-3 weeks, then I´ll have a close look

You are welcome,

I just see this as routine when I use old Leica.

When I process films, I know that these films are from screw mount Leica, if I forget to mark the film.

At first, on my Standard/IIIa, I didn't cut longer film leader, with luck, I had no trouble, but with some films ( I did not bother to note them ) problems occured.

So just to be safe, now I "roughtly" cut longer leader (as I wrote not counting the holes anymore) to let the 2-3 turns on the receiver cassette, to guide the loading.

[robert_parker]

I must admit I love the idea of the templates and particularly the two aftermarket ones which I haven't seen before but in the street I cut the leader roughly to size using a pair of curved nail scissors and it works fine - it's a case of principle rather than precision.

[willeica]

10 hours ago, Kl@usW. said:

William, great talk and very useful information !  No language problem either.    Since you were and are so generous with your advice--same for the other members- let me tell you what happened: I bought a clean chrome Elmar 2,5 /50 thinking it was a good start.  Then, looking for a body I came along a nice combo of a IIIf rd but with an Elmar 3,5/50 red scale attached to it... now, having that Elmar already  I looked around for another body  and found a very nice cla´d IIf from a reliable source...   Now I'm  waiting for the delivery of the bodies. 

Btw: getting a clean 35 Summaron seems to be a lot more difficult: there are many  Summarons on the market--but most of them are flawed by haze. Even the ones labelled "mint".  I asked an experienced technician about the haze and he told me that the oil used in  the aperture part of the lens seems to first cover, then disintegrate the coating and that in some cases he had to polish off the coating to get rid of the haze.... so buying a haze lens and having it cleaned might work, but not for sure. 

For the  moment I´ll wait and see how far I get with just an 50 mm lens.. 

Thanks for that. The 50 should do you for a start. I have 5 35mm Summarons, each with different specifications, and none of them have a problem with haze. They are getting quite expensive now, since I bought my ones. I have a nice Canon 35mm f2.8 Serenar lens which came to me on a IIIf RD. It is every bit as good as the equivalent Summarons.

William 

[Jul]

11 hours ago, Kl@usW. said:

I have an MD-2 and like the experience of using it with the Summaron M-28 or the S-Angulon M 4/21. Prefocussed, estimated frame.... fun !

If you want more control from time to time, specially with wide angle on the I series, you can add a bubble level in the second accessory shoe without the need to remove the finder beforehand.

11 hours ago, Kl@usW. said:

Not so funny are the prices asked for the LTM Angulon 4/21 and the Summaron 5,6/28 LTM.....

As for the Super-Angulon, the cheaper M is a LTM in disguise… 

[a.noctilux]

So true for S-A 4/21.

mine is M mount with LTM to M ring attached from start.

1,462 screw ...5,292 bayonet, numbers of units made, after my Pocket Book

[robert_parker]

23 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

So true for S-A 4/21.

mine is M mount with LTM to M ring attached from start.

1,462 screw ...5,292 bayonet, numbers of units made, after my Pocket Book

...also true of the Summicron 8-Element, another really nice lens to use on the Barnack cameras...

[Kl@usW.]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Jul:

If you want more control from time to time, specially with wide angle on the I series, you can add a bubble level in the second accessory shoe without the need to remove the finder beforehand.

As for the Super-Angulon, the cheaper M is a LTM in disguise… 

So you can take off the LTM ring and use it on the Barnack ? 

[a.noctilux]

1 hour ago, Kl@usW. said:

So you can take off the LTM ring and use it on the Barnack ? 

Yes of course.

As Robert said abve, the first version of Summicron 35mm also.

I have Summaron 2.8/35 mm in the same "type", removable ring, so I can use it on LTM Leica.

As I have also Summaron 3.5/3.5cm tiny lens in screw mount, i don't bother to use the other 35mm, only to try out, then I let the adapter attached.

Not the same with 21mm, as in this focal length screw mount is very scarse.

A warning, distance coupling is only to about 1m on LTM, even if the S-A 21mm can focus to 40cm.

With huge dof, I can use this lens at all distance, guessing or "strap gauge" * under 1m.

 

* some of my straps have markings for 30cm, 40cm, 50cm, 60cm as rough guide when I fancy to use lenses which focus closer than 1m

like here (not Barnack, but MDa ) S-A 21 close focus/framing  guessing for low pic

 

 

[Jul]

4 hours ago, Kl@usW. said:

So you can take off the LTM ring and use it on the Barnack ?

To add a little to a.noctilux' answer, once the adapter is removed the lens will look like

or

[Kl@usW.]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb robert_parker:

...also true of the Summicron 8-Element, another really nice lens to use on the Barnack cameras...

Robert, not being familiar with the identification via elements: is this the "Rigid"--Summicron  ? Or the first Summicron , the "Collapsible" ? 

[a.noctilux]

2 hours ago, Kl@usW. said:

Robert, not being familiar with the identification via elements: is this the "Rigid"--Summicron  ? Or the first Summicron , the "Collapsible" ? 

"8 element" Summicron is the first version of 35mm lens.

nickname of this one from Wiki

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we can see here the factory fit LTM to M ring at rear

[Pyrogallol]

I have read that the 8 element Summicron is not as good as the f2.8 Summaron.

[a.noctilux]

22 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

I have read that the 8 element Summicron is not as good as the f2.8 Summaron.

Right 😉, I agree.

But I see that Summicron is far better than Summaron at f/2 to f/2.79 😉

👇

In real world use, in many years of use the two along, and never see any one better than the other one.

they are brothers

as said here

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[robert_parker]

I have owned the 8-Element Summicron in its original LTM format and it's one of the sales that I really regret. 

I've not had chance to try the 2.8 Summaron but as said by A Noctilux they are very much in the same style, at least in terms of appearance, although the Summicron does indeed perform better at f2 😉👍. 

There are two main versions of the 8-Element, the earliest (which is the one I owned) focussed to 1m and was made purely in LTM form; they then progressed to a M bayonet version which focussed to 0.75m and some were back converted to LTM and are identifiable by the 0.75m marking.

Sadly I've relatively few images taken with the lens having lost a whole batch taken in Paris, mainly on Adox Silvermax but I've attached a couple from the archives  for fun here.

 

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