Would you buy an EVF only M camera? [MERGED]

[algrove]

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As noted, every survey seems to have a high percentage of respondents in favor of a small EVF Leica-who knows the size, but to me I would like a Q or M sized one.  I would take 2 in fact.

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[lct]

2 minutes ago, algrove said:

As noted, every survey seems to have a high percentage of respondents in favor of a small EVF Leica-who knows the size, but to me I would like a Q or M sized one.  I would take 2 in fact.

I would keep my M11 but i could not resist an EVF-M with IBIS for sure.

[algrove]

11 minutes ago, lct said:

I would keep my M11 but i could not resist an EVF-M with IBIS for sure.

Me too unless a compelling M12 came out and then I would get that RF M camera too.

[ksrhee]

Sorry to spoil the party here.  The Q3 EVF is one of the best I've seen, but it doesn't even come close to my M10M OVF.  I am keeping my Nikon D850 forever just for that reason, and not getting the Z mount.  

Edited March 20, 2024 by ksrhee

[lct]

5 minutes ago, ksrhee said:

Sorry to spoil the party here.  The Q3 EVF is one of the best I've seen, but it doesn't even come close to my M10M OVF.  I am keeping my Nikon D850 forever just for that reason, and not getting the Z mount.  

Many of us use other cameras than Leica on this forum. My favorite is a Kolari mod Sony A7r2 for instance. It's just that some of us like both OVF and EVF, while others prefer either OVF or EVF. Such is life. Not sure what's not to like in that.

[ksrhee]

2 minutes ago, lct said:

Many of us use other cameras than Leica on this forum. My favorite is a Kolari mod Sony A7r2 for instance. It's just that some of us like both OVF and EVF, while others prefer either OVF or EVF. Such is life. Not sure what's not to like in that.

I agree that we all have our differences. It sounds like it would make many people happy if Leica came out with a Leica equivalent of the Fuji X100VI that has a hybrid viewfinder with autofocus. Sorry to diverge, but Fuji's biggest mistake was introducing and keeping the X-Trans sensor. My original X100 had a beautiful color rendering that my XT-5 can't match . . .

[tom0511]

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I really do not see any advantage of all compared to a M11 (or previous models) where I can use both EVF for UWA and Tele and rangefinder for my most used focal length in the 28-75 range.

Maybe it could be cheaper because not needing so many optics and technical parts. So I don't mind if there will be an EVF only M as long as there will be a rangefinder version with OVF as well.

[lct]

12 minutes ago, ksrhee said:

I agree that we all have our differences. It sounds like it would make many people happy if Leica came out with a Leica equivalent of the Fuji X100VI that has a hybrid viewfinder with autofocus. Sorry to diverge, but Fuji's biggest mistake was introducing and keeping the X-Trans sensor. My original X100 had a beautiful color rendering that my XT-5 can't match . . .

Matter of tastes, as usual. I liked much my Fuji X-E2 but its weak points, to me, were its sensor and Fuji colors i spent too long to adjust in PP. The digital CL (to me again) was much better in a similar package.

Edited March 20, 2024 by lct

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, tom0511 said:

I really do not see any advantage of all compared to a M11 (or previous models) where I can use both EVF for UWA and Tele and rangefinder for my most used focal length in the 28-75 range.

Maybe it could be cheaper because not needing so many optics and technical parts. So I don't mind if there will be an EVF only M as long as there will be a rangefinder version with OVF as well.

I think this may be where it ends up.

My interest is in M lenses; no AF; no zoom; and no video.  Just a stills camera, all manual using M lenses, with the best sensor in full frame and hassle free electronics.  I have and use my SL and X2D for everything else (though I currently have no AF lenses - that’s another story).

I have three M cameras (M10-D for colour, Monochrom for black & white and M-A for film), so I’m wedded to the M system, and happily so.  It is, however, limited.  With the M mount, the size of the throat and register distance makes the edges tricky, which is sort of what makes the M lenses so special.  But, for me, the camera is only good from 21mm to 135mm (actually, 75mm if I’m being honest).  So that rather defines its purpose.  For me.  I have taken birds in flight with my M9, but it was … tricky!

In terms of focusing, as discussed many times, the OVF rangefinder is supremely accurate for wides.  I’d say 35mm out to 21mm (18 or 15 if you’re brave - loved my Zeiss 15/2.8, but couldn’t live with the Italian flag), but from 50mm to 135mm, the EVF is way better for focusing accuracy.  For framing, the EVF is fantastic.  So, it’s a mix of both, where the EVF is a useful add-on if you have a CMOS based M camera (M(240), M10 or M11 series) - not so useful for my M9 or my Monochrom!

Add to that, Leica’s recent development of M lenses with shorter focusing distances, and the need for an EVF, whether built in or Visoflex becomes more apparent.  Will Leica release such a camera?  To be honest, I think they have such a huge problem with the M11 that I doubt they will.  Any EVF based M will come with the M12, or an M10-R re-release, if that can be done.

Why not on the M11?  Well, it seems if you use your M11 carefully, giving it only one thing to do at a time, you might be okay; but if you give it too much to do at once, it will crash.  So, refreshing video in an EVF and doing anything else might be too much for the processor to handle.

Sitting in my office, not in an armchair …

John

[algrove]

True to the M, I just want an smallish camera that has an EVF for focusing manual M lenses.

[pgk]

To me the essence of this discussion is quite simple. The Mrf is a system limited in its scope. Within its viable parameters it works very well but it is a compromise. An Mevf would be a compromise in other ways and whilst it could extend some of the Mrf's scope (closer focus distances would be possible for example) it would be more difficult to use in other ways, so wide angle focus would be more difficult/slower. It would replace one set of compromises with another. The Mrf has a heritage of viable use, an Mevf would not have. Whether Leica will find sufficient sales for a compromised, speculative design is THE question because the bottom line is that such a design would require investment and more importantly, a return on this investment. I'm still really dubious about sales numbers because, whilst some here on the forum may buy an Mevf, they will almost certainly not be a sufficient number to make it viable. So Leica will either have to do some careful research and act on it, or take a gamble (not always a good business strategy). Given the complaints about the M11 and its flaws, I would suggest that Leica has other things to think about and deal with than a concept camera at the moment.

Edited March 21, 2024 by pgk
mostly typos!

[adan]

10 hours ago, algrove said:

True to the M, I just want an smallish camera that has an EVF for focusing manual M lenses.

Being true to the M means focusing by snapping two images together in a second or less.

It is the only "unique selling proposition" that makes paying Leica M prices worthwhile (barely 🤪 ).

[lct]

45 minutes ago, adan said:

Being true to the M means focusing by snapping two images together in a second or less.

It is the only "unique selling proposition" that makes paying Leica M prices worthwhile (barely 🤪 ).

To each their uniqueness 😉 My only reason to buy Leica is M-mount lenses personally. I don't dislike the RF mode though it's an old friend of mine since the seventies.

Edited March 21, 2024 by lct

[algrove]

4 hours ago, pgk said:

To me the essence of this discussion is quite simple. The Mrf is a system limited in its scope. Within its viable parameters it works very well but it is a compromise. An Mevf would be a compromise in other ways and whilst it could extend some of the Mrf's scope (closer focus distances would be possible for example) it would be more difficult to use in other ways, so wide angle focus would be more difficult/slower. It would replace one set of compromises with another. The Mrf has a heritage of viable use, an Mevf would not have. Whether Leica will find sufficient sales for a compromised, speculative design is THE question because the bottom line is that such a design would require investment and more importantly, a return on this investment. I'm still really dubious about sales numbers because, whilst some here on the forum may buy an Mevf, they will almost certainly not be a sufficient number to make it viable. So Leica will either have to do some careful research and act on it, or take a gamble (not always a good business strategy). Given the complaints about the M11 and its flaws, I would suggest that Leica has other things to think about and deal with than a concept camera at the moment.

Well put.

As Overgaard mentions the EVF in a Viso2 is already a fact and it's about the same size as the rangefinder window area. So to put one in a small camera is not rocket science. Yes it is the desire of Leica to do it, when it makes sense to them and us their market.

While writing this, one important fact that Leica already knows (and we don't) came to mind. What percentage of M11 owners buy the Viso2?

Also we already know the Q has been a marvelous success for Leica. Why do people buy the Q?

What is their main reason for buying the Q? Smaller size than an M while still being full frame? Fixed 1.7 lens? The AF ? Also why did Leica come out with the Q?

It was a bit of a gamble to launch the first Q , but the biggest gamble was the original M9 Monochrome. Both gambles paid off handsomely for Leica and I applaud them for their gambles. So it seems at times Leica is not adverse to taking gambles on new product.

Someone at Leica knows the answers to these questions. Will Leica act or not is what we all want to know. Leica wants to know if we will act and buy it.

I will since I bought both of their gambles mentioned above. Never two without three for me.

Edited March 21, 2024 by algrove

[raizans]

In anticipation of users who prefer focusing wide angle lenses with a rangefinder:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[algrove]

16 hours ago, ksrhee said:

Sorry to spoil the party here.  The Q3 EVF is one of the best I've seen, but it doesn't even come close to my M10M OVF.  I am keeping my Nikon D850 forever just for that reason, and not getting the Z mount.  

Your M10M has an EVF option, but on the M11 the Viso2 is the best add-on EVF I have used on any Leica. It also has IBIS for focusing through it, but not for the sensor-only for focusing-which is an improvement.

TV screens are TV screens as they are not OVF. That said the SL EVF is terrific with Leica optics in charge.

[algrove]

45 minutes ago, raizans said:

In anticipation of users who prefer focusing wide angle lenses with a rangefinder:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I own a couple of these just to remind me how far Leica has come over the years.

[ksrhee]

Classic!  I was talking to someone recently, and he said that you don't have to worry about framing and exposure these days since he can crop and adjust them in post-processing in the digital era.  I guess his mentality is just to shoot and fix it later.  I know the current digital sensors are marvelous, but I was taught when I started that these factors are important (framing and exposure), and I guess I'm stuck with that!  Call me a traditionalist, but I want the M to remain true to its heritage.  Sorry about another diversion, but this reminds me of what's happening with sports cars.  I know dual-clutch automatic gear can be faster and more efficient than manual gear shift, and it's getting harder and harder to find cars with manual gearbox these days.  I miss the good old days.  

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[ksrhee]

38 minutes ago, algrove said:

Your M10M has an EVF option, but on the M11 the Viso2 is the best add-on EVF I have used on any Leica. It also has IBIS for focusing through it, but not for the sensor-only for focusing-which is an improvement.

TV screens are TV screens as they are not OVF. That said the SL EVF is terrific with Leica optics in charge.

I believe the Viso2 is also compatible with the M10. As I said, I'm impressed with Leica's latest EVF), but my preference remains unchanged . . .

[algrove]

2 hours ago, ksrhee said:

I believe the Viso2 is also compatible with the M10. As I said, I'm impressed with Leica's latest EVF), but my preference remains unchanged . . .

Compatible yes, but not all the benefits accrue to M10 use.