Would you buy an EVF only M camera? [MERGED]

[pippy]

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The percentage figures are quite interesting at this moment.

113 people have said they would definitely buy one whereas those either firmly against or else who would wait until they try it for themselves number 111. If we add to the first figure those who would like the possible EVF camera as well as a M11 the total becomes 136 whilst if we add those who wouldn't buy one but are OK with it being introduced to the second group we arrive at 142.

Quite an even match whichever way one looks at it.

Philip.

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[pegelli]

29 minutes ago, raizans said:

You’ve heard about manual focus lenses for mirrorless? Voigtländer, Zeiss Loxia, TTArtisans, etc.? Plus the large classic lens w/adapter community.

To add 1 datapoint (I know that doesn't say much), I just checked my Lightroom catalog and of the ~26000 photo's with my FF EVF/mirrorless cameras about half (~13000) were shot with MF lenses (native e-mount or adapted), the other with AF lenses. And MF lenses is exectly the reason I got into mirrorless, because it was so much harder and limited to us DSLR's with MF lenses.

Edited February 21, 2023 by pegelli

[raizans]

3 minutes ago, pgk said:

Yes, I use manual focus lenses on EVF cameras myself. These cameras are still able to use suitable AF lenses. There are no EVF manual focus only cameras on the market as far as I am aware.

True. If you want AF, people have plenty of options. I could definitely see the appeal of a rangefinder-style L-mount body with a new series of compact lenses, except I’d prefer to stay with M-mount.

[pegelli]

25 minutes ago, pippy said:

The percentage figures are quite interesting at this moment.

113 people have said they would definitely buy one whereas those either firmly against or else who would wait until they try it for themselves number 111. If we add to the first figure those who would like the possible EVF camera as well as a M11 the total becomes 136 whilst if we add those who wouldn't buy one but are OK with it being introduced to the second group we arrive at 142.

Quite an even match whichever way one looks at it.

Philip.

Counting the ones who want to "try first" together with the "firmly against" to arrive at an "even match" is too much of a stretch for me.

I think (if Leica would ever introduce a MF EVF M-mount camera) the "try first" group will most likely split up in "I like it, I'll buy it", "Not for me but I'm happy it exists" and "Never! It's the work of the Devil" catagories. We'll probably never know that distribution but assuming 100% would become fully against is not realistic in my mind.

Edited February 21, 2023 by pegelli

[pippy]

13 minutes ago, pegelli said:

Counting the ones who want to "try first" together with the "firmly against" to arrive at an "even match" is too much of a stretch for me.

I think (if Leica would ever introduce a MF EVF M-mount camera) the "try first" group will most likely split up in "I like it, I'll buy it", "Not for me but I'm happy it exists" and "Never! It's the work of the Devil" catagories. We'll probably never know that distribution but assuming 100% would become fully against is not realistic in my mind.

The numbers I wrote are/were not intended to be an accurate indication of likely buying figures nor do I imagine all of those who voted that they would like to try it first would all decide against a purchase. Clearly some light-hearted musing isn't welcome in this thread so I'll leave you all to enjoy your own individual argumentative stances.

P.

[LBJ2]

13 minutes ago, pippy said:

The numbers I wrote are/were not intended to be an accurate indication of likely buying figures nor do I imagine all of those who voted that they would like to try it first would all decide against a purchase. Clearly some light-hearted musing isn't welcome in this thread so I'll leave you all to enjoy your own individual argumentative stances.

P.

Now comes the survey numbers debate 😉 I am inclined toward your current interpretation but I think the numbers have changed these last few days and will yet evolve. I changed my original vote the other day given the sudden interest in this topic and thread and frankly some of the interesting comments posted these past few days. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by LBJ2

[lct]

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1 minute ago, pgk said:

I can't say that I've seen many manual focus only EVF cameras on the market ...... definitely a (small) niche.

Small or large when counting mirrorless i don't know but Leica MD, MDa and MD-2 were a small niche anyway. Mere M2, M3 or M4 sans rangefinder, they were made to be used with a Visoflex too. Nothing new under the sun .

[pegelli]

33 minutes ago, pippy said:

Clearly some light-hearted musing isn't welcome in this thread so I'll leave you all to enjoy your own individual argumentative stances.

My response was pretty light hearted as well, I think there's no need to be offended by a different interpretation of the numbers.

It's all highly speculative and unimportant chatter here anyway, both the survey as well as wether or not Leica will ever develop such a camera.

Edited February 21, 2023 by pegelli

[pgk]

10 minutes ago, lct said:

Small or large when counting mirrorless i don't know but Leica MD, MDa and MD-2 were a small niche anyway. Mere M2, M3 or M4 sans rangefinder, they were made to be used with a Visoflex too. Nothing new under the sun .

They were far simpler to make models. Simply removing the rangefinder and putting a new top plate on was relatively cheap and obviously there was a demand for them for technical photography. I think that some of the last M4-2 (or P) ameras were bulit from MD-2 'chassis' if I remember reading correctly. If building an EVF-M is as simple (remove the rangefinder and squeeze in the innards of an existing electronic visoflex) then it might be cheap enough for Leica to produce a limited run to see what happens. We shall see.

[Mr.Prime]

On 12/7/2022 at 4:40 AM, jaapv said:

Users want -that is the catch phrase. Leica needs to draw new users into the brand as the M demographic is aging and just another EVIL camera at Leica price won’t do it -see the CL; a M-like camera, seamless adaptation to M lenses, amazing quality in the purest Barnack tradition, yet the market did not accept it. 

Leica didn't try that hard, they produced one model. For a camera that was over-priced compared with their competition and which didn't ship with an adapter for their M-lenses, it was really sub-optimal. Had they re-focused and launched a CL-2 they may have hit the mark, but they didn't. Perhaps they were afraid to take sales away from the M. 

When the CL was cancelled I stayed with film M, there's no way the price of the digital M is worth it for me when compared with the competition. I've yet to see anything from modern Leica to open my wallet for, yet I've spent $000's on used Leica gear.

[Phil75]

Though pricing for many probably will be a (bad) surprise. Amortization of an EVF version would be realized in a relatively small batch what could mean a RF and EVF MSRP being almost at par. 

[jaapv]

28 minutes ago, lct said:

Small or large when counting mirrorless i don't know but Leica MD, MDa and MD-2 were a small niche anyway. Mere M2, M3 or M4 sans rangefinder, they were made to be used with a Visoflex too. Nothing new under the sun .

OK, so Leica should make an M10 without rangefinder and a blank top plate to use with the Visoflex only?   

[Le Chef]

10 hours ago, Paul.S said:

Why?

You have a M11 then M11P, M11D?, M11R gets replaced with M11 EVF model, M11M and lastly the limited editions. I don't see why you need a seperate line.

It also appears that you disregard the fact that as resolution goes up the need for IBIS and accurate focus also increases.

I'm sure Leica are well aware of this or they wouldn't have sent me a survey a couple of days ago asking about an EVF M.

Paul

Why because Blackstone are in the business of making money from Leica. Their business is not a charity. A separate line would be needed to attract sufficient numbers to pay for the development of it. 

The cheaper and more pragmatic options are to offer a better Visoflex for the M and continue to offer the M adaptor for the SL.

What’s resolution got to do with the argument? On that basis the M11 should already have IBIS and doesn’t.

The survey is not a Leica survey. Not that it matter much as Leica’s survey writing is poor at best if you’ve attempted to complete the pricing survey.

[raizans]

I think that a small but vocal minority of people (~20% here) are afraid of the EVF-M because they suspect that it would be a sales success and "kill" the rangefinder M. I don't know how to assuage their fears, they've been in this state of negative thinking and existential panic since the "bad years" of the late '90s and early '00s, despite the current vibrancy and strength of Leica rangefinders today.

Edited February 21, 2023 by raizans

[pgk]

5 minutes ago, raizans said:

I think that a small but vocal minority of people (~20% here) are afraid of the EVF-M because they suspect that it would be a sales success and "kill" the rangefinder M. I don't know how to assuage their fears, they've been in this state of negative thinking and existential panic since the "bad years" of the late '90s and early '00s, despite the current vibrancy and strength of Leica rangefinders today.

My bold. Says it all really; there's a key word in there.

[jaapv]

No worry, Leica still has place for an assembly table for digital Ms next to the M6 Neo...

[lct]

25 minutes ago, jaapv said:

OK, so Leica should make an M10 without rangefinder and a blank top plate to use with the Visoflex only?   

The M10's LV mode would be outdated of course but an M11 sans RF with built-in Visoflex could be a good description indeed. Never too late to see the light in the dark .

[jaapv]

No, not built in. The MD was not a reflex camera either. 

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[pgk]

33 minutes ago, lct said:

The M10's LV mode would be outdated of course but an M11 sans RF with built-in Visoflex could be a good description indeed. Never too late to see the light in the dark .

I'll get my mate Heath onto it right away😉.

[pgk]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

No, not built in. The MD was not a reflex camera either. 

Are you suggesting a replacement for the original visoflex except EVF instead of reflex? Now there's a thought.

And whilst on the subject if Leica resurrected the 5 bodyshell then there would be more room inside for everything to fit😊.