Would you buy an EVF only M camera? [MERGED]

[Qwertynm]

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vor 15 Minuten schrieb Le Chef:

If you develop a new line of autofocus lenses from scratch that will be several years worth of work before they go on sale.

scroll up and read again. that’s not what I wrote at all…

@lct I don’t see how that would work without loosing focus at infinity. Besides, manual focus wouldn’t be impacted by a focusmotor integrated in the camera itself. It’s the same lens after all. You can manual focus your M-lenses just fine on your sony with the adapter I assume? The reason being the flange distance of E and Z mount is shorter than M mount. Otherwise it wouldn’t work because of the lack of space for the adapter

Edited March 15, 2024 by Qwertynm

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[Le Chef]

So maybe you can answer some of my questions regarding the basis of the lenses, costs and who will buy.

[lct]

39 minutes ago, Qwertynm said:

 I don’t see how that would work without loosing focus at infinity.

Neither do i, so no AF then sorry for this good idea...

[Tailwagger]

Motor driven M lenses? Not for me, thanks.

That said, I suggested years ago that incorporating CDAF software from the SL into the M coupled to a indicator in the OVF to signal focus is really all that's needed. This would solve most user's issues, particularly with longer lenses, be quicker and possibly more accurate than using the RF or EVF.  Not an original idea, the Pentax D/Z implemented something similar.  When set to MF mode, a simple red dot would light up in the OVF when the camera detected the image was in focus. Worked great and a boon when using early non-AF glass on those cameras where focus accuracy was paramount.

In the M context, spinning a manual lens is likely just as fast as moving glass around, particularly the heavy stuff. In my view all that's needed is a quick, 'yeah, go ahead, you're in focus' indicator to provide peace of mind for those with aging eyesight.

Edited March 15, 2024 by Tailwagger

[Le Chef]

15 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

In the M context, spinning a manual lens is likely just as fast as moving glass around, particularly the heavy stuff. In my view all that's needed is a quick, 'yeah, go ahead, you're in focus' indicator to provide peace of mind for those with aging eyesight.

And with a Visoflex arguably you already have that.

[Qwertynm]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb lct:

Neither do i

No, you don’t understand. Take your sony with the techart adapter. Then remove everything save for the sensor and techart and build a leica-style M-EVF camera around that and voilà, EVF M camera with M mount AF lenses that still focus manually as they do on a rangefinder M. 

[Le Chef]

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M mount lenses would require wholesale reengineering to work with some kind of powered focusing adaptor. How would the adaptor know which lens was mounted and how much rotation and torque was required to turn it to the position where it was in focus? Would the lens require different coding and how would that be implemented on both old and new M lenses? Maybe you can answer those questions?

[lct]

24 minutes ago, Qwertynm said:

No, you don’t understand. Take your sony with the techart adapter. Then remove everything save for the sensor and techart and build a leica-style M-EVF camera around that and voilà, EVF M camera with M mount AF lenses that still focus manually as they do on a rangefinder M. 

I don't know what i don't understand but it seems we don't understand the same things you and me 😉 The EVF-M is supposed to be an M-mount camera specifically designed for manual M-mount lenses. Focusing would then work the same way as on M cameras, except that the RF would be replaced by an EVF. The idea is to keep M lenses exactly as they are and have always been with no modification whatsoever.

[Smogg]

Most modern Leica lenses include an internal movable glass group (FLE). Therefore, even with the Techart adapter, you have to focus manually first and only do the final adjustments using the adapter. It’s much faster to do the whole process on an M camera

[lct]

36 minutes ago, Smogg said:

Most modern Leica lenses include an internal movable glass group (FLE). Therefore, even with the Techart adapter, you have to focus manually first and only do the final adjustments using the adapter. It’s much faster to do the whole process on an M camera

I would not say so. I can focus quickly in RF mode but focusing is not 100% accurate at 60mp then. To nail focus, i need to use focus magnification in LV mode and this can take as long or longer than with the Techart adapter.

Edited March 15, 2024 by lct

[Qwertynm]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb lct:

The idea is to keep M lenses exactly as they are and have always been with no modification whatsoever.

Yes, that‘s what I mean exactly 😅 maybe I‘m just bad at explaining then. The M mount lenses you use on your Sony with the TechArt adapter aren’t any different on an M. Except for that they don’t autofocus.

now imagine an M-EVF camera eith that built in AF-motor. It’s still M mount and it would still be M mount lenses. But now with the ability to autofocus. Same flange distance, same sensor just a different box around it. 

[Qwertynm]

Huh, I just realize that maybe I misunderstand what the TechArt adapter actually does. So you focus at 0.7m and the adapter moves the lens inwards (towards the camera) to reach infinity instead of actually moving the glass inside the lens?

[Smogg]

1 minute ago, Qwertynm said:

Huh, I just realize that maybe I misunderstand what the TechArt adapter actually does. So you focus at 0.7m and the adapter moves the lens inwards (towards the camera) to reach infinity instead of actually moving the glass inside the lens?

Exactly 

[lct]

Just now, Qwertynm said:

now imagine an M-EVF camera eith that built in AF-motor. It’s still M mount and it would still be M mount lenses. But now with the ability to autofocus

Manual focus does not work like that on M-mount cameras. Works with focus cams on both the lens and the camera.

[Qwertynm]

Ah now I see how my idea doesn’t make that much sense. Good thing I‘m not a product manager. Sorry for my rambling then 😅

[Tailwagger]

4 hours ago, Le Chef said:

And with a Visoflex arguably you already have that.

And inarguably with the OVF you don't.  🙂

I've had and extensively used all three versions of the Visoflex from the 240 to the M11.  AFAIC, if you're referring to focus peaking, at least on the M, I find it to be useless. But even if you dispute that opinion, FP is a substantial different notion given it highlights all areas rather than the intended target, not to mention that it is incredibly distracting. I'd add that for those of us who often shoot beyond either end of the 35-75mm spectrum, the raw resolution of the EVF is insufficient to guarantee precision.  One can employ magnification but zooming in and out is time consuming and risks having to reframe. 

I find it far more efficient to focus via OVF and frame via EVF in such situations.  My standard methodology is to employ zoom, focus via OVF, switch to EVF to confirm, then half press to ensure framing. If the OVF had some form of focus confirmation, it's one less step. Regardless, there are many prefer the optical finder, hate adding the EVF, might actually shoot with flash, etc, etc, etc.  And even for those like myself who rely on the EVF day to day, there are any number of situations where using the OVF is preferable.

The real argument against this notion, and one I level against the Mevf in general, is the lack of auto aperture which is required for the highest level of reliability.  ie. its not likely to be very useful when the lens. particularly a wide, is stopped down (much as the EVF isn't).  It's something I personally would have no problem with, but its likely a Pandora's box that Leica would be less inclined to open.

Edited March 15, 2024 by Tailwagger

[Le Chef]

I can’t stand focus peaking - it would never be my choice for multiple reasons. My preference is at most to magnify the image (I.e. when using a Q3) but more often than not simply focusing manually. Focusing an M via OVF is not that hard: you just have to be patient and not rush around like a caricature version of Austin Powers pretending to be a photographer.

[dsalamena]

An EVF M camera would be interesting but Leica should implement a reliable and efficient way to confirm focus: focus peaking is not practical enough. A focus system such as the one implemented by Nikon Zf camera would be indeed very interesting. 

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[lct]

Focus magnification and auto zoom work fine on the M11.

[dsalamena]

I agree, but it would be great to have a focus confirmation (a green dot or something like that) in a hypothetical EVF M. The Nikon ZF works great with manual focus lenses, as it automatically zooms in the eye (if it detects one in the scene) and confirms autofocus with a green light.