Would you buy an EVF only M camera? [MERGED]

[jaapv]

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I wouldn't know how to formulate it more clearly.

 

[Leitz.]

3 hours ago, lct said:

Indeed and claiming that there are better and cheaper EVF cameras with M lenses is a good joke. Seems like naysayers to the EVF-M are in panic mode i don't know why

What Leica does with the M is irrelevant to me personally as I already have mine.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Leitz.

[Leitz.]

On 2/21/2023 at 10:37 AM, lct said:

superior performance to the M11 today or the M12 tomorrow.

This is the danger. Now we are into the never ending gotta get the new features toy of mirrorless. Which is a thing I don’t miss. Because a rangefinder is a simple thing that needs nothing other than the one behind the camera making better choices when to press the shutter. 
 

Just my opinion. But what I don’t understand is the “M lenses on a mirrorless camera” being a joke. 
 

Here are 2 photos. I wish I could post them in full resolution. One is the A7RIV and the other the M11. Both shooting the 50 Summilux 

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With a little editing if it wasn’t for the grass I couldn’t tell which was which. But it’s in the exif. 

Once I have to pull out a microscope to discuss differences I know I’m pushing it and it’s irrelevant, because that’s Not what a good photo is about  

I love my Leica lens but each system has great lenses. Canon has amazing glass, so does Nikon, Sony, and the OG Fuji lenses were magic. 

So for me the move to M was the rangefinder. If I wanted an EVF camera I would’ve chosen that. The big 3 are making great cameras and great lenses that do the EVF experience amazingly well. 
 

EVFs are not easy to get right, especially since we are all used the the OVF. How to keep an M style camera this small and put all the things some people want and do it right. Like an EVF that doesn’t suck and lag? Or IBIS that won’t make the camera bigger? Etc etc. and the more you put; the more heat it generates. The more drain and the bigger it needs to be to meet the thermal envelope. 

This just doesn’t sound like the simple M experience I love. I don’t have a dog in this fight so it’ll be fun to watch from a far. 
 

Happy Shooting. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Leitz.

[hdmesa]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

I wouldn't know how to formulate it more clearly.

Eulogy is a speech you give at a funeral. If @lct were promoting their mod Sony, and you were trying to say they do that too much/too often, then you would say something like:

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

It does come as a surprise - each time you post your eulogy of the Sony in grandiose praise of the Sony. 

[lct]

I can't seem to recall a post where i compared my M11 and Sony bodies, reason why asked Jaap to elaborate.  I still don't see what he wants to demonstrate but i'm glad to know what eulogy means at least, thank you @hdmesa.

[jaapv]

I'm afraid I have to add to your knowledge;

 

I used meaning #2

 

 

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In Oxford's Advanced Learning Dictionary it is meaning #1. 

 

 

 

[hdmesa]

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14 minutes ago, jaapv said:

You use meaning #1

I used meaning #2.

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That word is rarely associated with anything but a death oration in American English, so using it generically to mean high praise is likely to cause confusion. Just like the word "obtuse" can simply mean being "direct", but if you tell someone they are being obtuse, they are likely to misunderstand.

Edited February 23, 2023 by hdmesa

[jaapv]

Ah- but I lived in Oxford as a child and was educated in British English . I am not completely familiar with the transatlantic dialect. Two nations divided by a common language. 🙃

[hdmesa]

15 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Ah- but I lived in Oxford as a child. I am not completely familiar with the transatlantic dialect. Two nations divided by a common language. 🙃

You should tell people you studied at Oxford as a child instead 😂

[jaapv]

No that was my father. He was tutored by Tolkien for his B. Litt. Oxon. He would turn in his grave if I descended into Americanisms. I’m not very good at inflating my CV anyway, not being a politician. 

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, jaapv said:

No that was my father. He was tutored by Tolkien for his B. Litt. Oxon. He would turn in his grave if I descended in Americanisms. 

Horrors! 😆

Yes, in America we love to take a word, use it exclusively in a very specific way, and stifle the original meaning.

[jaapv]

Tell me about it   I regularly have to cope with Southern African speakers. If the going gets tough I have to hand the phone to Patricia. She is  much  better than I am at understanding those particular accents. Must be because she  is from Bristol.   

[IkarusJohn]

7 hours ago, pgk said:

Well I've used Mlenses on both A7 series Sonys and the SL and in all honesty they're not that bad on either. I wonder what the consensus here would be if Sony marketted an M shaped version of the A7 series cameras?

We went into this at great length years ago - telecentric lenses v wides;  mid focus distance v infinity etc.  The SL is the only non-M digital with microlenses which copes with M lenses at all focal lengths and focusing distance (there were problematic lenses, obviously - 28 & 35 Summicrons spring to mind).

Obviously some M lenses work okay on the A7 (I had a A7r), but not as well as on an M camera.  Besides, if you want a Sony, there are better options (Otus?); and if you prefer M lenses, why would anyone prefer an A7 over an MEVF?

Edited February 23, 2023 by IkarusJohn

[Leitz.]

3 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Obviously some M lenses work okay on the A7 (I had a A7r), but not as well as on an M camera.  Besides, if you want a Sony, there are better options (Otus?); and if you prefer M lenses, why would anyone prefer an A7 over an MEVF?

This is where the argument is done because it’s all going in circles. 

I hope Leica makes a mirrorless camera with an M mount. I really do. Especially since a lot of people just can’t focus a rangefinder for various reasons. Or could before and no longer can. It’s also more accessible to more people and they can sell even more M lenses. Everyone wins. 

I win because well…

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Edited February 23, 2023 by Leitz.

[raizans]

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[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, Leitz. said:

This is where the argument is done because it’s all going in circles. 

I hope Leica makes a mirrorless camera with an M mount. I really do. Especially since a lot of people just can’t focus a rangefinder for various reasons. Or could before and no longer can. It’s also more accessible to more people and they can sell even more M lenses. Everyone wins. 

I win because well…

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Oh, we’ve been going in circles for 10 years or more!

Having “invested” in more systems and camera equipment than I can reasonably afford, I’m happy with fabulous M lenses and an M-A, Monochrom & M10-D. I “need” nothing more. 

[pgk]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

Oh, we’ve been going in circles for 10 years or more!

Yes, Leica are being a little bit slow in reacting to what some see as an obvious gap in their line-up😉😁.

[Leitz.]

10 minutes ago, pgk said:

Yes, Leica are being a little bit slow in reacting to what some see as an obvious gap in their line-up😉😁.

I can understand because well, it’s like Apple. They always get criticized for coming up with things 4 years after android. But the truth is that android’s implementation is always crap and Apple takes their time to develop it and make it seamless in their ecosystem. 

I remember back when Leica was only a dream for me and I was shooting Fuji the Q came out and I thought; if that camera had just an M mount I would totally buy it  

So it’s something to think about how they’ll implement a mirrorless camera with an M mount and have it make sense in their ecosystem without one thing cannibalizing the other  

I would absolutely 100% will love it so they can just leave the M alone. I think the M11 took it far enough. Time to go to a mirrorless M mount camera instead of trying to make the M into something that it isn’t.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Leitz.

[thighslapper]

I'm not going to wade through 42 pages to see if this point has been made ..... but don't you think that the selection of naff bolt on visoflex EVF's for the M range indicates how Leica feel about this ? 

They could have ditched the opto-mechanical viewfinder years ago ..... the whole mechanism is a real pain when it comes to adjustment and calibrations so it would have simplified construction and reduced costs. A pure EVF version is not difficult to implement. 

I suspect there is a hard core in Wetzlar who still consider digital cameras as the work of the devil....... a digital sensor in an M was heresy and an EVF is just another step too far from the original Barnack philosophy.  

M lenses can be adapted to use on many other platforms where you have the use of an EVF if you so wish. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by thighslapper

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[cboy]

Ok since the idea of the EVF M is geared towards the more older demographic of Leica users so then why not allow them to use the 'EVFM' till the end. But until that time they ever make one (it better be soon for their sake) it's probably more likely there will be a SL3 that would allow AF with their M Lenses to make it more accessible, and also more likely a rangefinder styled SL.SL-R. It's more easy to reconfigure the SL to look like a rangefinder than to redesign the M from inside out imo