oka Posted January 23, 2022 Author Share #21 Posted January 23, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 11 hours ago, oka said: ...while I haven't tested yet, probably with M11 - you should expose to the right more (and recover highlights in post) than with the M10R and SL2S to get most of the DR out from the sensor - at least in high iso. I was wrong (at least on tested ISO), one is ISO1000 and second one ISO2000. ISO1000 image is pushed one stop at edit. Originally ISO2000 overexposed photo is not able to recover the highlight nor there are no visible difference on shadow noise. C1, -100highligh, 20 shadow, 50 black, linear curve First: ISO1000 1/60 +1stop on edit Second: ISO2000 1/60 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/328901-iso6400-m10r-m11/?do=findComment&comment=4365712'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 23, 2022 Posted January 23, 2022 Hi oka, Take a look here ISO6400 (M10R & M11). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
PostTenebras Posted January 23, 2022 Share #22 Posted January 23, 2022 Thank you for the comparison. I have observed the same behavior. M 11 holds the colors better and the shadows are deeper. Here is a somewhat extreme example (ISO 6400 pushed 3.5 stops): M11 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! M10-R 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! M10-R ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/328901-iso6400-m10r-m11/?do=findComment&comment=4365713'>More sharing options...
oka Posted January 23, 2022 Author Share #23 Posted January 23, 2022 (edited) More I test, more I'm pleased with the overall performance of M11 sensor. Highlight are simply stunning. Also the battery is huge improvement, during freezing weather LV on it barely used any power. With M10 you could literally see the drain on the meter and feel the heat. Finally I could take single photo on continuous high speed mode! The weight (black)... I love it. When using heavier special edition lenses (eg. APO50 black chrome), additional extra weight on the lens doesn't feel so bad as body is lighter. Shutter is bit mystery for me, when taking single photo on continuous speed mode (low or high) - it some times makes "double sound" even, it has taken single photo. Sometimes it's impossible to know did the camera took one or two photos - this was problem from M10 when using LV, why Leica haven't fixed this as this is firmware issue... Edited January 23, 2022 by oka 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 23, 2022 Share #24 Posted January 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, oka said: More I test, more I'm pleased with the overall performance of M11 sensor. Highlight are simply stunning. Also the battery is huge improvement, during freezing weather LV on it barely used any power. With M10 you could literally see the drain on the meter and feel the heat. Finally I could take single photo on continuous high speed mode! The weight (black)... I love it. When using heavier special edition lenses (eg. APO50 black chrome), additional extra weight on the lens doesn't feel so bad as body is lighter. Shutter is bit mystery for me, when taking single photo on continuous speed mode (low or high) - it some times makes "double sound" even, it has taken single photo. Sometimes it's impossible to know did the camera took one or two photos - this was problem from M10 when using LV, why Leica haven't fixed this as this is firmware issue... I also noticed the "double sound" and looked at the shutter operation with the lens removed. In Continuous mode, the camera closes the shutter after the first shot to be ready for the next one and to put less stress on the shutter. Then, when you release the shutter button, it opens the shutter again. You hear the "double sound." The shutter works more when shooting single shots in Continuous than in Single mode. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oka Posted January 23, 2022 Author Share #25 Posted January 23, 2022 6 minutes ago, SrMi said: I also noticed the "double sound" and looked at the shutter operation with the lens removed. In Continuous mode, the camera closes the shutter after the first shot to be ready for the next one and to put less stress on the shutter. Then, when you release the shutter button, it opens the shutter again. You hear the "double sound." The shutter works more when shooting single shots in Continuous than in Single mode. Yes, but the odd thing is that it doesn't happen every time, just sometimes. Also why it has so long black out on first frame, much longer than the actual shutter speed is bit odd too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oka Posted January 23, 2022 Author Share #26 Posted January 23, 2022 (edited) ISO12500 C1 -100 highlight, 20 shadow, 50 black M10M vs M11. There is no point to mark the photos, monochrome is in league of its own. What I haven't notice before that monochrome doesn't seem to like the LED (strip) at all (lot of banding). Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited January 23, 2022 by oka 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/328901-iso6400-m10r-m11/?do=findComment&comment=4365846'>More sharing options...
shirubadanieru Posted January 23, 2022 Share #27 Posted January 23, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 3 hours ago, oka said: ISO12500 C1 -100 highlight, 20 shadow, 50 black M10M vs M11. There is no point to mark the photos, monochrome is in league of its own. What I haven't notice before that monochrome doesn't seem to like the LED (strip) at all (lot of banding). Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Man, the Monochrom sensor is just insane! It's the first camera I felt it was ISOless, and the first time ever I simply did not care about the ISO settings..amazing! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 24, 2022 Share #28 Posted January 24, 2022 34 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said: Man, the Monochrom sensor is just insane! It's the first camera I felt it was ISOless, and the first time ever I simply did not care about the ISO settings..amazing! The M10 Monochrom is far from being isoless. The chart below clearly shows that on M10M shadows improve with rising ISO. On the other hand, D7000 is pretty much isoless. M10M and D7000 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirubadanieru Posted January 24, 2022 Share #29 Posted January 24, 2022 10 minutes ago, SrMi said: The M10 Monochrom is far from being isoless. The chart below clearly shows that on M10M shadows improve with rising ISO. On the other hand, D7000 is pretty much isoless. M10M and D7000 Yeah, I meant it from a user perspective, I never felt the need to worry about ISO; that was really the first time for me in a camera, so it blew me away. But WOW, the D7000, that graph is insane!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 24, 2022 Share #30 Posted January 24, 2022 4 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said: Yeah, I meant it from a user perspective, I never felt the need to worry about ISO; that was really the first time for me in a camera, so it blew me away. But WOW, the D7000, that graph is insane!! Yes, M10M has so little noise that it does feel isoless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted January 24, 2022 Share #31 Posted January 24, 2022 (edited) I once was quite happy with the M10....until someone told us it has a highlightproblem. Now it also has a noise problem...damn Just kidding, I know there are improvements and I even might upgrade from M10r to M11, but I really find that many posts make the improvements look much bigger than they actually are - or the other way around, makes the older M-sensor sound worse, than they are - just my opinion. Edited January 24, 2022 by tom0511 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 24, 2022 Share #32 Posted January 24, 2022 3 hours ago, tom0511 said: I once was quite happy with the M10....until someone told us it has a highlightproblem. Now it also has a noise problem...damn Just kidding, I know there are improvements and I even might upgrade from M10r to M11, but I really find that many posts make the improvements look much bigger than they actually are - or the other way around, makes the older M-sensor sound worse, than they are - just my opinion. I think that in all the excitement with the new M11, owners want to show how great M11 is, not how bad M10 is. I think that is OK as long as they do not wander off into the M10 forum 😂. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoworks Posted January 24, 2022 Share #33 Posted January 24, 2022 After seen in the initial test from @oka about Large and Medium DNG , and seeing that the M was blowing highlight more then L, I wanted to do a quick test myself to confirm... In my test I don't see the difference in DR, what makes sense... and just to conclude I don't see much improvement in noise going from large to medium.. not enough to even think about it. here is the gallery of images that you can download.. https://photos.alexkroke.com/LEICA-SL2/Leica-M11/M11-6400-ISO-test/n-GWJpzM/ this L-DNG 0EV Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! M-DNG 0EV exposures are bracket on L-DNG -1EV -0 +1EV then the same in M-DNG my results makes me belie that overexposing a stop will clean out the noise a bit. but highlights get lost. you are better off shooting at a correct exposure.. there are 2 more files in L and M where sharpening and noise reduction was turn off capture was at 0EV 2 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! M-DNG 0EV exposures are bracket on L-DNG -1EV -0 +1EV then the same in M-DNG my results makes me belie that overexposing a stop will clean out the noise a bit. but highlights get lost. you are better off shooting at a correct exposure.. there are 2 more files in L and M where sharpening and noise reduction was turn off capture was at 0EV ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/328901-iso6400-m10r-m11/?do=findComment&comment=4366691'>More sharing options...
Chun Chang Posted January 24, 2022 Share #34 Posted January 24, 2022 On 1/22/2022 at 11:55 AM, oka said: I mainly shoot high iso (work and personal). Malleability of high iso files are one of the most important aspect to me. As M11 has different size of RAW files, crude test includes large and medium res RAW files. This is far from the scientific lab test, but shows clearly the difference and puts Leica statements to odd light. ISO6400, C1 -100 highlight, 20 shadow, 50 black M10R is "ok" if you don't push too much on edit. M11 large is noticeable better on shadows compared to M10R. M11 large is noisier than medium sized raw files, but in overall it looks better than medium sized raw. M11 medium has clearly less headroom on highlights compared to full size raw. M11 medium has slightly less headroom on blacks / shadows compared to full size raw. M11 medium is bit soft compared to full size raw. Leica states that medium sized raw has more DR than full sized raw. In high ISO this is not true. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! All those nice cameras and television sits on the floor 😊 Thank you for these comparisons! Very helpful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollin Posted January 24, 2022 Share #35 Posted January 24, 2022 On 1/23/2022 at 12:36 AM, oka said: Comparison to SL2S on ISO6400. C1 linear curve, -100 highlight, 20 shadow, 50 black M11 shows bit of banding, bit more noise and lower DR but on highlights, it can recover more than SL2S which is bit surprising... First image is M11. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! "M11 shows bit of banding" - that's concerning. High ISO performance is also important to me and had hoped the M11 would finally have a sensor that was at least current. I find my M10 throws banding or other artifacts randomly as low as ISO 8,000. Very glad to see better noise and color quality. Other than bad color noise, noise does not bother me and glad to find someone who considers high ISO more than four digits. @oka please keep sharing your findings and example of higher ISO work. I'm also wondering with full electronic shutter, for silence, how is banding from different light sources? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted January 24, 2022 Share #36 Posted January 24, 2022 (edited) Am 24.1.2022 um 03:59 schrieb oka: ISO12500 C1 -100 highlight, 20 shadow, 50 black M10M vs M11. There is no point to mark the photos, monochrome is in league of its own. What I haven't notice before that monochrome doesn't seem to like the LED (strip) at all (lot of banding). Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! You should have done this test prior to the inspection of this pour tiling work. Now you have found a real issue...😬 Edited January 24, 2022 by Steve Ash Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted January 24, 2022 Share #37 Posted January 24, 2022 vor 8 Minuten schrieb Rollin: "M11 shows bit of banding" - that's concerning. High ISO performance is also important to me and had hoped the M11 would finally have a sensor that was at least current. I find my M10 throws banding or other artifacts randomly as low as ISO 8,000. Very glad to see better noise and color quality. Other than bad color noise, noise does not bother me and glad to find someone who considers high ISO more than four digits. @oka please keep sharing your findings and example of higher ISO work. I'm also wondering with full electronic shutter, for silence, how is banding from different light sources? Do you mean the structure of the wood? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirubadanieru Posted January 24, 2022 Share #38 Posted January 24, 2022 1 minute ago, Steve Ash said: Do you mean the structure of the wood? In my test shots I see color noise in shadows starting at ISO 2500...so, probably for higher ISOs it's best to go B&W unless you are ok with color noise. Was expecting more here to be honest, but it is what it is. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asi_Pro Posted January 25, 2022 Share #39 Posted January 25, 2022 2 hours ago, shirubadanieru said: In my test shots I see color noise in shadows starting at ISO 2500...so, probably for higher ISOs it's best to go B&W unless you are ok with color noise. Was expecting more here to be honest, but it is what it is. I was also worried to very clearly see color noise in relatively low ISO. It was obvious when looking at the LCD screen, and in the Library module in Lightroom. It's bad compared to M10. But, on the latest Lightroom version, as soon as you open the image in the Develop module the color noise disappears in an effective way, and overall low light performance is even better than M10. By default when opening an M11 image LR applies something like 40 or 50 to color noise reduction, but overall image quality is not affected. Curious if anyone else has thoughts on this. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 25, 2022 Share #40 Posted January 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Asi_Pro said: I was also worried to very clearly see color noise in relatively low ISO. It was obvious when looking at the LCD screen, and in the Library module in Lightroom. It's bad compared to M10. But, on the latest Lightroom version, as soon as you open the image in the Develop module the color noise disappears in an effective way, and overall low light performance is even better than M10. By default when opening an M11 image LR applies something like 40 or 50 to color noise reduction, but overall image quality is not affected. Curious if anyone else has thoughts on this. The amount of applied NR depends on the ISO used (e.g., ISO 64: 5, ISO 1600: 20). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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