M11 Highlights and shadows

[sebben]

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Just now, hdmesa said:

And the M11 sensor is the only sensor at this pixel density that doesn't have to deal with PDAF banding.

That may be but it still shows banding in the shadows and a magenta shift according to the pictures posted here comparing to the SL2-S which seems to be the gold standard of sensors at this point in terms of exposure latitude. 

[SrMi]

22 minutes ago, sebben said:

These graphs say nothing about banding.

So even sensors that measure the same might look totally different once you lift the shadows after bad under exposure.
 

I would test camera before buying them if possible and not buy based off these numbers. 

Yes, those numbers only measure from saturated highlights to a certain SNR threshold. Other factors contribute to the pleasing high ISO image. Sensor Heatmaps are supposed to tell us how pleasing the results are in extreme situations. Lower is better for the row and column metrics (also check visual representation). I only recently heard about it.

[Chaemono]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb hdmesa:

And the M11 sensor is the only sensor at this pixel density that doesn't have to deal with DPAF banding.

I was pondering whether I should just use the Z7, which I have, with M lenses (it works really well with the APO 50 Summicron) and keep my M10-P instead of getting a new M but PDAF banding is an issue. The Z7 has IBIS so one could keep ISO low.

[hdmesa]

6 minutes ago, sebben said:

That may be but it still shows banding in the shadows and a magenta shift according to the pictures posted here comparing to the SL2-S which seems to be the gold standard of sensors at this point in terms of exposure latitude. 

Was the SL2-S like that from firmware 1.0 or did it improve with an update? Regardless, banding can usually be mitigated in firmware (original Q had a shadow banding fixed in firmware).

Hopefully Leica did not leave the PDAF tech on the M11 sensor in order to save production cost since it will probably be shared with the SL3. That would suck.

Edited January 22, 2022 by hdmesa

[Chaemono]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb sebben:

That may be but it still shows banding in the shadows and a magenta shift according to the pictures posted here comparing to the SL2-S which seems to be the gold standard of sensors at this point in terms of exposure latitude. 

If Leica doesn’t come out with an M11-S, I won’t be getting another M. 

[SrMi]

23 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Of course,

we all (maybe ?) know that highlight whiting is user's error in exposure 🤞

relying on sensor high count DR would be counterproductive, in my view,

but I may be wrong.

SL2 is a great camera. However, nobody would buy SL2 (SL2 vs. M11) if they bought cameras using PDR numbers. I think those numbers are relevant, but many give them too much importance. 

[SrMi]

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4 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Was the SL2-S like that from firmware 1.0 or did it improve with an update? Regardless, banding can usually be mitigated in firmware (original Q had a shadow banding fixed in firmware).

Hopefully Leica did not leave the PDAF tech on the M11 sensor in order to save production cost since it will probably be shared with the SL3. That would suck.

PDAF is an add-on that Leica would need to put in the sensor toppings. The toppings are Leica specific; the underlying silicon may be by Sony.

[SrMi]

9 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

I was pondering whether I should just use the Z7, which I have, with M lenses (it works really well with the APO 50 Summicron) and keep my M10-P instead of getting a new M but PDAF banding is an issue. The Z7 has IBIS so one could keep ISO low.

AFAIK, Z 7 II does not show banding. Z 7 cameras are relatively good fit for M lenses, but it is no rangefinder. SL2-S works even better with M lenses.

Edited January 22, 2022 by SrMi

[hdmesa]

Just now, SrMi said:

PDAF is an add-on that Leica would need to put in the sensor toppings. The toppings are Leica specific; the underlying silicon may be by Sony.

Yes, I was just saying I was hoping they wouldn't have put PDAF on the M11 so they could save money by running out a huge batch of the same sensor to share across M11, SL3, and Q3. 

[pgh]

2 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

Out of curiosity, to see if the curves have practical use, I try Sony A7R (without other M in the chart), only M11/A7R.

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica M11,Sony ILCE-7R

Almost as good almost 12 EV !

I never know that I already have a gem of sensor, in A7R since many years

I've shot Sony (a7r2) next to my M10 for years. I prefer the Leica in every way except for the sensor's DR. The difference is obvious if you have an established workflow for both. In fact, I keep it around only for the sensor's superiority and utility. 

I'll reserve final judgment until I get ahold of a demo M11 to make some files with, but this result doesn't make me too excited, esp because the only real gain seems to come at a new lower base ISO which, heck, you would hope it would be a stop better, given it's also about a stop more exposure required...

There are a lot of things that matter in a camera besides the DR of the sensor but for my work it's been a sticking point. If I were a wiser man I'd have ditched the M a long time ago and stick with what makes the best files but I enjoy the process of the M too much - and I keep hoping the M catches up - I guess if I'd stick at ISO 64 I could say it has but that's a bit limiting as I find 200 to be a much more practical every day setting.    

Edited January 22, 2022 by pgh

[SrMi]

15 minutes ago, pgh said:

I've shot Sony (a7r2) next to my M10 for years. I prefer the Leica in every way except for the sensor's DR. The difference is obvious if you have an established workflow for both. In fact, I keep it around only for the sensor's superiority and utility. 

I'll reserve final judgment until I get ahold of a demo M11 to make some files with, but this result doesn't make me too excited, esp because the only real gain seems to come at a new lower base ISO which, heck, you would hope it would be a stop better, given it's also about a stop more exposure required...

There are a lot of things that matter in a camera besides the DR of the sensor but for my work it's been a sticking point. If I were a wiser man I'd have ditched the M a long time ago and stick with what makes the best files but I enjoy the process of the M too much - and I keep hoping the M catches up.    

I think your expectations are unrealistic. The M11's PDR is slightly better than the latest Nikon DR champ: M11 vs. Z 7 II. In addition, there is an advantage of having the base ISO at a one-stop lower ISO (1 stop wider aperture,  20 instead of 10-sec long exposure).

Edited January 22, 2022 by SrMi

[Tailwagger]

39 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Yes, I was just saying I was hoping they wouldn't have put PDAF on the M11 so they could save money by running out a huge batch of the same sensor to share across M11, SL3, and Q3. 

Wrapped up underneath this desire is the notion that, assuming this is indeed a Sony sensor in the M11, Leica is willing to move on from Pano sensors in the FF AF arena. While it might make for a slightly better camera, I cant imagine it would be a positive for the L-Mount and alliance in general. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Tailwagger

[mon10a]

1 hour ago, pgh said:

* * *

There are a lot of things that matter in a camera besides the DR of the sensor but for my work it's been a sticking point. If I were a wiser man I'd have ditched the M a long time ago and stick with what makes the best files but I enjoy the process of the M too much - and I keep hoping the M catches up - I guess if I'd stick at ISO 64 I could say it has but that's a bit limiting as I find 200 to be a much more practical every day setting.    

I am experimenting with using ISO 64 to get the extended DR, but underexposing by 1.5 or 2 stops to use a more comfortable shutter speed. Then, depending on the histogram, raising exposure or shadows (or sometimes both) in post. Interesting results so far.

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

Wrapped up underneath this desire is the notion that, assuming this is indeed a Sony sensor in the M11, Leica is willing to move on from Pano sensors in the FF AF arena. While it might make for a slightly better camera, I cant imagine it would be a positive for the L-Mount and alliance in general. 

Yes, I think the positive feedback about the SL2-S color and high ISO helped expedite the move away from the sensors they were using before.

[pgh]

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

I think your expectations are unrealistic. The M11's PDR is slightly better than the latest Nikon DR champ: M11 vs. Z 7 II. In addition, there is an advantage of having the base ISO at a one-stop lower ISO (1 stop wider aperture,  20 instead of 10-sec long exposure).

It's unrealistic for the most expensive 35mm camera on the market - (one that costs 2-4x what others do) to have a sensor that performs on par with the cheaper ones for a given ISO?  I said I'd wait to make some files before judging the M11 but putting the M10 next to the A7R2 is always a direct demonstration of how much you missed by spending 3x as much. 

[SrMi]

33 minutes ago, pgh said:

It's unrealistic for the most expensive 35mm camera on the market - (one that costs 2-4x what others do) to have a sensor that performs on par with the cheaper ones for a given ISO?  I said I'd wait to make some files before judging the M11 but putting the M10 next to the A7R2 is always a direct demonstration of how much you missed by spending 3x as much. 

That is not what I meant. My comment was about this:

"... at a new lower base ISO which, heck, you would hope it would be a stop better, given it's also about a stop more exposure required..."

It is unrealistic to expect M11's maximum PDR to be one stop better than all of the top-PDR cameras.

Edited January 22, 2022 by SrMi

[adan]

13 minutes ago, pgh said:

It's unrealistic for the most expensive 35mm camera on the market - (one that costs 2-4x what others do) to have a sensor that performs on par with the cheaper ones for a given ISO?  I said I'd wait to make some files before judging the M11 but putting the M10 next to the A7R2 is always a direct demonstration of how much you missed by spending 3x as much. 

Leicas cost more than Nikons for decades, while the "sensors" and "DR" remained identical (Kodachrome 25 at one end and Delta 3200 at the other).

It is not the sole measure of a camera system.

 

[Photoworks]

5 hours ago, pgh said:

I've shot Sony (a7r2) next to my M10 for years. I prefer the Leica in every way except for the sensor's DR. The difference is obvious if you have an established workflow for both. In fact, I keep it around only for the sensor's superiority and utility. 

I'll reserve final judgment until I get ahold of a demo M11 to make some files with, but this result doesn't make me too excited, esp because the only real gain seems to come at a new lower base ISO which, heck, you would hope it would be a stop better, given it's also about a stop more exposure required...

There are a lot of things that matter in a camera besides the DR of the sensor but for my work it's been a sticking point. If I were a wiser man I'd have ditched the M a long time ago and stick with what makes the best files but I enjoy the process of the M too much - and I keep hoping the M catches up - I guess if I'd stick at ISO 64 I could say it has but that's a bit limiting as I find 200 to be a much more practical every day setting.    

I think you sure try it before you Bild up you negative vibe.. the M10R and M11 have a night and day differences in sensor performance in color and resolution to the M10. 
I had the a7R2, and I still have a7R3 and a7R4, m10R and M11 and I think I can say with confidence the M11 camera produces the best image quality that Leica has currently in any other camera.

I was never a huge fun of M10-P limitation, the M10-R solved all that, M11 is a touch better too

 

[a.noctilux]

12 hours ago, Photoworks said:

I think you sure try it before you Bild up you negative vibe.. the M10R and M11 have a night and day differences in sensor performance in color and resolution to the M10. 
I had the a7R2, and I still have a7R3 and a7R4, m10R and M11 and I think I can say with confidence the M11 camera produces the best image quality that Leica has currently in any other camera.

I was never a huge fun of M10-P limitation, the M10-R solved all that, M11 is a touch better too

 

I'm curious,

bolded text,

Can you share please what is M10-P limitation solved by M10-R/M11 (curious a touch better )?

 

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[pgh]

14 hours ago, Photoworks said:

I think you sure try it before you Bild up you negative vibe.. the M10R and M11 have a night and day differences in sensor performance in color and resolution to the M10. 
I had the a7R2, and I still have a7R3 and a7R4, m10R and M11 and I think I can say with confidence the M11 camera produces the best image quality that Leica has currently in any other camera.

I was never a huge fun of M10-P limitation, the M10-R solved all that, M11 is a touch better too

 

Well, I did say I'll reserve judgement until I make some files, so I agree.