I don't want the M11, I would like the SL-M :D

[Keek]

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[opera207]

That will be ergonomically disaster,😬

[sebben]

How a Leica Q with an L mount? 

[Pelu2010]

Yes, I think this camera will come.

And it will be a big success. 
 

If Leica also allows the user to use some kind of AF with M lenses ( I know the real Leica photographers don’t use af) , but it’s not about the actual base of camera user it’s about the future people. And there will be photographers that will use both and if some Chinese company is able to produce an adapter then it should be easy for Leica to produce it …. Leica L Mount with M lenses and AF. 
And of course you can shut it off if you want to get the feeling of slow shooting. 
Cheers 

[Stevejack]

2 hours ago, Pelu2010 said:

Yes, I think this camera will come.

And it will be a big success. 
 

If Leica also allows the user to use some kind of AF with M lenses ( I know the real Leica photographers don’t use af) , but it’s not about the actual base of camera user it’s about the future people. And there will be photographers that will use both and if some Chinese company is able to produce an adapter then it should be easy for Leica to produce it …. Leica L Mount with M lenses and AF. 
And of course you can shut it off if you want to get the feeling of slow shooting. 
Cheers 

I'm not against an AF adapter but think if Leica goes to the trouble of designing an M-mount EVF camera, rather than spend resources on bringing a sub-par autofocus experience to M lenses they should lean hard into making manual focusing a more pleasant experience with the EVF.  

If the camera is designed entirely around a manual-focus only lens, innovations in software will either make or break the experience. My fear is that Leica will just give us an SL3 in an M body, relying on the usual focus peaking, which won't be nearly enough to attract a lot of existing SL + M users. 

Hopefully advancements in AI will mean that the camera will be able to clearly indicate when a subject is in sharpest focus, at any aperture.
Focus peaking is ok at wide apertures but it's too all-encompassing at narrow apertures making it difficult to judge the focus point. 

 

 

Edited January 30 by Stevejack

[setuporg]

As per usual, I wish all the EVF-M fans complete and utter frustration of their ill-placed hopes, so here's to that monstrosity never disgracing our noble pages!  M does not stand for EVF, Kameraden.  It stands for Messucher.  Which means "don't mess with the M."

[Stevejack]

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1 hour ago, setuporg said:

As per usual, I wish all the EVF-M fans complete and utter frustration of their ill-placed hopes, so here's to that monstrosity never disgracing our noble pages!  M does not stand for EVF, Kameraden.  It stands for Messucher.  Which means "don't mess with the M."

I think maybe you're getting confused about what people are asking for. Unless I've mistaken the sentiment, no-one wants the M to change. This would be a completely separate model from the existing M / SL lines. Leica needs to leave the M the hell alone before they completely butcher it, otherwise the M12 will be even more of a frankenstein's monster than the M11. 

If you want your M to stay an M you should be championing the EVF-M crowd 

 

Edited January 30 by Stevejack

[Tseg]

SL-M:D … without an LCD.  Cool.

[Smogg]

It would be nice to release a line of lenses without aperture blades for such a camera, it would simplify the design😂 Anyway, more or less fast manual focusing using an electronic viewfinder is only possible with an open aperture.

[phojomatic]

I’ve thought a lot about a Q style camera for M lenses. The one stopping point always is that the M lenses have no electronic contacts. 
 

So any such camera would need to be M or A priority out of the gate (not a huge problem). But then there’s the need to tell the camera which lens you are using…not just 6-bit info, but say an old 28mm so the lens correction is accurate. 
 

Moreover though, and EVF with M would be living in focus peaking hell. Instead of focusing on the image, it will be an endless squiggle of red highlights. It’s one thing to use the SL EVF with AF lenses, but another to literally see red all day. Not fun. 

What could be cool is if the EVF simulated a rangefinder, so imagine the nice SL EVF, with rangefinder patch. My Fuji xpro2 has a version of this (it’s split screen, like a Nikon F series focus patch).  That seems like a possible solution.

 

Of course, this only makes the camera viable for photography. I can’t image trying to shoot video using a rangefinder!!!

I feel the SL series with M adapter is what Leica prefers  

 

[Stevejack]

5 hours ago, _tc said:

can you help me understand this comment? In what ways specifically is the M11 a "frankenstein's monster" any more than say, the M10?

The M11 is trying to combine two competing experiences into one camera in an attempt to please two different user bases.

The M11 took away the off-the-curtain metering system so the M11 loses a familiarity which M users have had since the mid 1980s. 

Leica's implementation of the e-shutter is several generations behind other flagship cameras and I consider it unusable for anything other than static subjects (which IMO defeats the purpose of using an e-shutter). Having no way to switch back to the standard shutter / metering system is a bit of a slap in the face to rangefinder enthusiasts I think.

Clearly Leica sees live view and using the e-shutter as a priority going forward. But they need to pick a lane and work towards those strengths. If they want to make a completely silent M, with blackout-free live view and a useable e-shutter then they need to lean HARD into improving this experience. They can't do this without affecting the rangefinder experience.

Do away with the rangefinder which will free up space and budget to improve the e-shutter / evf experience. Make this one model. 
And make a pure rangefinder for the rangefinder enthusiasts. 

I'm not fussed about the lack of a baseplate and the switch from brass to a lighter alloy, but these are all major differences from previous M models and I would agree with the argument that the M is losing some of its classic charm that led me to the system in the first place. I love my M11, and I know it sounds like I don't here... but I think the M11 has become two cameras in one body. It's starting to feel less and less like an M and more like a Q. 

[Stevejack]

13 minutes ago, _tc said:

This statement is outright incorrect. It is easy to turn the electronic shutter off and use only the mechanical one. I do this myself on my M11.

As far as the metering thing goes, I could just as easily say REAL Leicas don't have meters since we all know the TRUE experience is an M2/3 anyway. Do you think the curtain shutter is charming? I don't think it is. I'd rather be able to use lenses like the DR summicron and various old 21mms because again you can use those on real Leicas no?

I remain unconvinced if those are your offerings. I think if they were putting a Visoflex 2 in the box I'd be sympathetic but the M11 works exactly like an M10 except the meter is reading off the sensor, a tech btw that has been around for age. You know Olympus were metering off the film in the 80s right?

No, you're confusing the e-shutter with live view. the M11 is always in live-view even when using the mechanical shutter. To take the picture with the mechanical shutter you always have a shutter which transitions from open>closed>open>closed>open. Metering off the curtain had your usual closed>open>closed shutter of the M10 and previous series. 

The Olympus you mentioned obviously wasn't giving you a meter reading off the film which you could then adjust to suit the exposure you wanted to make, you were stuck with the shutter speed it gave you based on what it considered was the 'correct' exposure in auto mode. It's not the same as metering off a digital sensor before the shot is taken. 

I really like the M11, I have a couple of them. I'm worried about the future of the M line though. 

[Stevejack]

1 minute ago, _tc said:

ok you're right I did not take it to mean that. I don't quite understand your logic here; there is no "traditional" shutter for a digital M if you take anything like a live view EXCEPT for a mechanical (and potentially cloth mechanical shutter). Your specific language was you were stuck with a non-traditional electronic shutter. That is a categorically incorrect statement but I understand now that's not what you meant.

The things you are viewing as traditional are mid-life things for the M cameras. Barnacks and meterless Leicas make up the majority of the history of the cameras. If we must be "traditional", that's what that should mean no?

I have an M11 and an M2. I see very little difference between the two in terms of experience, except for how much better the M11 viewfinder is and how much I enjoy the digital iso situation as opposed to the film experience.

Leica has signalled they will keep the M experience the M experience. Why worry about it until they give you a reason to? I mean I guess you view those two things as a reason to worry I just can't see eye to eye with you on that one.

Yep that's absolutely fair, worrying about something that doesn't exist yet doesn't get anyone anywhere 😅

 

[Le Chef]

This whole thread seems farcical. If you want something different, at a minimum buy a Pixii, or move to an SL. Just leave the M as it is, or simplify it.

[JNK100]

6 hours ago, Le Chef said:

This whole thread seems farcical. If you want something different, at a minimum buy a Pixii, or move to an SL. Just leave the M as it is, or simplify it.

Yes, agree completely 

[Mahesh]

I am a simpleton, just hoping for an M12 without freezes.

[jdlaing]

3 hours ago, Mahesh said:

I am a simpleton, just hoping for an M12 without freezes.

Not simpleton. Purist.

[costa43]

On 1/30/2025 at 5:15 AM, Stevejack said:

I think maybe you're getting confused about what people are asking for. Unless I've mistaken the sentiment, no-one wants the M to change. This would be a completely separate model from the existing M / SL lines. Leica needs to leave the M the hell alone before they completely butcher it, otherwise the M12 will be even more of a frankenstein's monster than the M11. 

If you want your M to stay an M you should be championing the EVF-M crowd 

 

I totally agree. An EVF M would allow the standard M to stay simple instead of this hybrid option we are now heading towards. Hopefully it comes soon and the M12 puts things right again. 

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[3D-Kraft.com]

You can alread buy this Q-sized SL-M as Sony A7CR. - including the option for an AF-Adapter (from 3rd party).

But also this is too unbalanced, when you plan to use those nice M-lenses that make a rangefinder camera useless (Noctilux 75/1.25, Summilux 90/1.5) and those lenses are also too heavy for the AF-adapter.

[HellDriver]

Am 30.1.2025 um 13:43 schrieb Smogg:

It would be nice to release a line of lenses without aperture blades for such a camera, it would simplify the design😂 Anyway, more or less fast manual focusing using an electronic viewfinder is only possible with an open aperture.

That´s not correct. My Voigtländer 50mm Nokton RF-Mount works perfectly with the R5 EVF and the implemented manual focus assist. Regardless of the chosen aperture.