Why I will not be getting a M11...

[John Smith]

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19 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

This is what you wrote.  And it’s wrong.

Jeff

You could watch Peter Karbe’s SL presentation and see that is not. Or you can just fuss about it. 

[Jeff S]

1 minute ago, John Smith said:

You could watch Peter Karbe’s SL presentation and see that is not. Or you can just fuss about it. 

I watched it. Doesn’t change my last comment.  No fussing needed.

BTW, Karbe has separate presentations on M and SL. 

Jeff

[harmen]

Here's an example of a lens that is known for its glow rather than having the best MTF results: the 35mm summilux.  Wide open.  Cropped in to 100% on 60MP.

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[Tailwagger]

2 hours ago, John Smith said:

You could watch Peter Karbe’s SL presentation and see that is not.

30 year old 28mm Elmarit v3 corner at 100% mag... Seems sharp enough to me.  But yeah, it ain't no APO, there's substantial chroma in some scenarios, which sadly, is my one serious knock on the camera, really seems to be the M11's calling card. Be sure to click through of course. 

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[LocalHero1953]

On 3/17/2022 at 10:24 PM, IkarusJohn said:

Why do I get the sense that the forum has changed over the last while - many people seem so tense.  Historically, the forum has been a pleasant, respectful place to visit.  Sure, we had guns, Brexit and a few other hot topics, which were entertaining in their own ways, but recently the gear threads have also been running hot.  

I've been around in the forum since I bought a new M9. TBH this is not a change I've noticed. There's a turnover in members, as you'd expect, but I suspect you've forgotten some of those who had an offensive posting style and left (some are still around...). There's certainly plenty of sensitivity over the M11, but I see that as just the consequence of a long anticipated new flagship, not a change in the forum overall.

OTOH things were always better in the old days. Youngsters had more respect (especially for me....) and photos were better.

[WvE]

I have mixed feelings towards the M11. I just want a killer sensor (24 or 32 MP max.) and keep the rest simple. I’m not against evolution but please do not turn the M into a jack of all trades with for example 60 MP,  it's not in the DNA of an M. There are always better and less expensive options in that department.

 

[geddon_jt]

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I personally think that when Leica eventually releases an M that has only a digital shutter with a high enough readout speed to avoid rolling shutter that the M11 will be largely relegated to a stopgap measure camera. Not trying to argue with anyone here and not disputing it takes good pictures. But to me it feels like a half measure toward the next major innovation. (Removal of the shutter could also free up space for heat management in the smaller post-M240 body style where we could see video brought back, not that that is a priority for me or most M users). Right now, both the physical shutter and electronic shutter modes of the M11 have too significant of compromises for me personally.

[John Smith]

11 hours ago, Jeff S said:

I watched it. Doesn’t change my last comment.  No fussing needed.

BTW, Karbe has separate presentations on M and SL. 

Jeff

Here are two screenshots. One is from Karbe's SL presentation that shows the difference in resolving power between the 35mm FLE and the 35SL. The other is from Sir Roger Cicala's blog. It shows the relative resolving power of a number of 50mm lenses. The resolving power of lenses is a thing. 'Nuff said.

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Edited March 23, 2022 by John Smith

[Jeff S]

I never said resolving power isn’t ‘ a thing’.  Of course it is. And Roger explains how it works in conjunction with a sensor.  My comment still holds.  A lens needn’t have the highest resolving power to benefit from increased sensor MP.  (And not just in terms of resolving power, which neither discuss.)
 

Jeff

Edited March 23, 2022 by Jeff S

[IkarusJohn]

What seems to be becoming apparent is that the 60MP sensor is more than a little unforgiving, throwing up issues with lenses that were not previously apparent.  There is a limit to the mantra that increasing resolution of the sensor will benefit all lenses.  Increasing resolution seems to also reveal new problems.

My sense is also that the M11 introduces a number of new technology (60MP sensor, electronic shutter etc) that are not fully developed …

[Tailwagger]

42 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

I never said resolving power isn’t ‘ a thing’.  Of course it is. And Roger explains how it works in conjunction with a sensor.  My comment still holds.  A lens needn’t have the highest resolving power to benefit from increased sensor MP.  (And not just in terms of resolving power, which neither discuss.)
 

Jeff

Indeed. I can offer no scientific explanation nor proof... all I can say is that my early glass is back in the rotation after a hiatus with the 10-R.  If I had to guess, something related to BSI, higher acuity, thinner glass or the combination has resulted in taking a bit of the edge off of the rendering. Where my Mandlers where terrific on the 10 and 240, on the 10-R they often seemed too crispy... a complex scene would come off as too busy with the details acting as more of a point of distraction than a compliment to the scene.  Possibly the sort of thing that caused many to dislike the R rendering when compared to the 10.  With the new sensor these lenses now seem to be back to the more buttery rendition which is what I had, from previous experience, come to expect of them. 

[Tailwagger]

11 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

What seems to be becoming apparent is that the 60MP sensor is more than a little unforgiving, throwing up issues with lenses that were not previously apparent.

As I mentioned above, I genuinely prefer my early glass on the M11 over the 10-R. That said, AFAICT, given the composition of my lens collection, your sentiment is true in only one, though very important, respect. After a couple of months and several thousand frames, the elephant in the M11's lens closet is chroma.  It is undeniably more prevalent than what I've seen previously from any M and well beyond what I would expect solely as a  result of having more pixels. Worst so far is the 28 'lux, which I find to be nearly unusable, at least at this time of year when the leaves are off the trees.  Most is correctable, but I would be lying if I said that I haven't lost shots to it. 

[Jeff S]

7 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Indeed. I can offer no scientific explanation nor proof... all I can say is that my early glass is back in the rotation after a hiatus with the 10-R.  If I had to guess, something related to BSI, higher acuity, thinner glass or the combination has resulted in taking a bit of the edge off of the rendering. Where my Mandlers where terrific on the 10 and 240, on the 10-R they often seemed too crispy... a complex scene would come off as too busy with the details acting as more of a point of distraction than a compliment to the scene.  Possibly the sort of thing that caused many to dislike the R rendering when compared to the 10.  With the new sensor these lenses now seem to be back to the more buttery rendition which is what I had, from previous experience, come to expect of them. 

On the other hand, I’m very pleased with the results (ultimately print) that derive from using my M10-R and M10 Monochrom (and still from my M Monochrom and SL2). There are myriad variables involved, most all of which involve user preferences, techniques and decisions.

But I think we agree that there is more to image quality than lens resolution, which was the end point in my last post.  I frankly don’t care about, and surely don’t understand, all the technical factors (lens, sensor and related hardware/software) that go into picture quality, which can be both objective and subjective. One thing I do know, however, is that John Smith’s statement that only the 35 and 50 APOs can take advantage of all those added MP is false. And the user has a lot to say about that.

Jeff

[Tailwagger]

12 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

But I think we agree that there is more to image quality than lens resolution, which was the end point in my last post.  I frankly don’t care about, and surely don’t understand, all the technical factors (lens, sensor and related hardware/software) that go into picture quality, which can be both objective and subjective.

Absolutely. I'll offer for the record that AFAIC the 50mm 'lux BC, my most beloved lens of all time, is at its best on the 10-R. Why these synergies ebb and flow between camera and lens is a mystery to me... could certainly be more around changes to the what and how of the internal processing of the image then the hardware tasked to gather it.  But the effect, psychological or otherwise, seems real. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Tailwagger

[IkarusJohn]

25 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

As I mentioned above, I genuinely prefer my early glass on the M11 over the 10-R. That said, AFAICT, given the composition of my lens collection, your sentiment is true in only one, though very important, respect. After a couple of months and several thousand frames, the elephant in the M11's lens closet is chroma.  It is undeniably more prevalent than what I've seen previously from any M and well beyond what I would expect solely as a  result of having more pixels. Worst so far is the 28 'lux, which I find to be nearly unusable, at least at this time of year when the leaves are off the trees.  Most is correctable, but I would be lying if I said that I haven't lost shots to it. 

One of my favourite lenses.  I recall seeing some colour shift on another lens (35 APO Summicron?), though that presumably will be fixed with firmware.  While a rising tide (MP count) raises all ships (lenses), it is not all sunshine and roses.  It reinforces my initial sentiment - I don’t care about increased MP, as it is not a driver for me, but I won’t complain if there is no significant downside.

[Kwesi]

8 hours ago, geddon_jt said:

I personally think that when Leica eventually releases an M that has only a digital shutter with a high enough readout speed to avoid rolling shutter that the M11 will be largely relegated to a stopgap measure camera. Not trying to argue with anyone here and not disputing it takes good pictures. But to me it feels like a half measure toward the next major innovation. (Removal of the shutter could also free up space for heat management in the smaller post-M240 body style where we could see video brought back, not that that is a priority for me or most M users). Right now, both the physical shutter and electronic shutter modes of the M11 have too significant of compromises for me personally.

You could say this for every digital M since the M9

[Tailwagger]

58 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

One of my favourite lenses.  I recall seeing some colour shift on another lens (35 APO Summicron?), though that presumably will be fixed with firmware.  While a rising tide (MP count) raises all ships (lenses), it is not all sunshine and roses.  It reinforces my initial sentiment - I don’t care about increased MP, as it is not a driver for me, but I won’t complain if there is no significant downside.

Mine too. Could be enough for me to just keep the 10-R in support of it.  I recall reading somewhere, not sure where, the assertion that BSI for all its advantages, can have a negative impact when it comes to fringing. No idea whether thats accurate or not, but undoubtedly the M11 loves purple. Regardless, this issue may not have anything to do with the count of pixels per se... its possible that with a 33 Mpx BSI sensor, the situation would remain the same.  

[Tailwagger]

9 hours ago, geddon_jt said:

I personally think that when Leica eventually releases an M that has only a digital shutter with a high enough readout speed to avoid rolling shutter that the M11 will be largely relegated to a stopgap measure camera.

Perhaps, but, as you seem to be new to the forum (welcome!),  if you go back to the initial postings on the 10-R, stop gap is exactly how it was described at the time, with a number of folks claiming that the M11 would arrive within a year.  As it turned out they very nearly were spot on, with it it taking only a year and half for the R to be superseded.  But if we gauge the attitude toward the 10-R today, the mood has shifted from stopgap M to classic, last of the breed, M.  Leica shooters are a fickle lot; the only thing one can reliably anticipated about the impact of a future M is that it will be met with strong emotion and divergent opinion. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Tailwagger

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, Kwesi said:

You could say this for every digital M since the M9

Not so sure about that.  There were issues with the M(240), but by the time the M-P was released, the camera was as good as it was going to be.  The M10 was very well resolved from release, as was the SL.  Not every new Leica release follows the banana approach …

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[Kwesi]

The point I was making is that each current generation has been a refinement of the previous one.