Leica Q3 predictions / ruminations

[Le Chef]

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On 4/1/2022 at 8:57 AM, Ash Lee said:

I envision a concept I call the QL. It's a Q3 with the sensor from the M11 (same as the Sony A7Riv) , an electric shutter (as on the Nikon Z9), image stabilization and an L-mount. It can use the small lenses from the CL at 30 megapixel resolution, and the lenses from the SL at 61 MPX resolution. It can also use M glass, either with the existing L to M manual focus adapter, or with a new autofocus M to L adapter. This camera is the culmination of several camera lines. Lest you think it is not doable, it is essentially similar to the existing Sigma FP, but would have Leica design and simplicity. Viewed from another perspective it is a L-mount A7Riv with cleaner Leica lines. 

In one camera we would have a CL2 (increased resolution, image stabilization, pathway for CL lenses), an updated and better Q, an EFV M camera, a miniaturized, higher resolution SL (the Q has always proceeded the next SL), and the essence 100 years of Leica lineage... big performance from small cameras.

I simply don’t believe Leica has the money to develop such a camera, and with such tiny volumes you would be looking at a camera at least as expensive to buy as an SL2 and probably more. The demand simply isn’t there to recoup the investment in developing and adapting technologies to make it work.

[Simone_DF]

On 4/4/2022 at 8:45 PM, Le Chef said:

I simply don’t believe Leica has the money to develop such a camera, and with such tiny volumes you would be looking at a camera at least as expensive to buy as an SL2 and probably more. The demand simply isn’t there to recoup the investment in developing and adapting technologies to make it work.

I think we should wait and see what Panasonic does next. That will give us a good idea on what's going on in Leicaland.

[Pelu2010]

On 1/16/2022 at 9:10 AM, Gobert said:

I would love to welcome a Q3 with 40mm lens. 28mm is too limited for me, while 40mm is the golden alternative.

Maybe it’s an opportunity of changing something? 

[Pelu2010]

On 1/17/2022 at 10:00 AM, acg69 said:

Dear Leica God - I have been a good boy all this past year and didn't buy any photo gear. PLEASE bring me this camera and while you are at it, make the lens a 35 and I promise I will quit nagging about the digital zoom implementation (btw, you dropped the ball there on th Q/Q2 but you have a chance to fix it the third time around, but let's not digress here). A screen that is flipping (any way, don't mind really) and a 35 mm f/2 or better and I promise I will keep it and pass it on to my children. Oh, and I will never ask for anything else, ever again! So there!

It’s more like a letter to Santa than to a god. 
if I could ask god for a favor I would beg him to improve my skills! Then I can use any shitty camera like a pro. ☺️🤣

[Herr Barnack]

There will undoubtedly be a Q3, and if it has any other lens than the 28/1.7 Summilux I will be greatly surprised.

Some folk wish for a 50mm or a 35mm lens on a Q camera.  The issue is not the 28mm lens, but rather knowing how to properly maximize the 28mm focal length. 

Before I got my Q2, I used a 28mm Summicron on my film MP for a long time.  The 28 challenged me - I had to learn how to use it to maximum advantage.  That is accomplished by learning to get closer to your subject in order to properly fill the frame. 

As Ernst Haas said, "The best zoom lens is your legs."  These days it seems popular to scoff at his advice, but the man did make a valid point. 

When you can't zoom with your legs - as in when you are at the edge of the Grand Canyon or Niagara Falls, mount your 50, 75, 90 0or 135mm lens.

[Olaf_ZG]

@Herr Barnackthen why does Leica make so many other lenses? If we could do it all with a 28mm, there is no need, but somehow there is a need, and the reason is not only not being close enough.

in other words, I respectfully disagree with what you said and hope there will be  a 35 or bigger…

[T25UFO]

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A few years ago the 'standard' lens in a compact camera was a zoom, and not always the best quality optic.  But as sensor resolution increased Leica developed a different marketing strategy coupling a high quality sensor with a very high quality (and moderately wide) lens.  More compact than a zoom, much better quality and cropping replaces zooming.

It works.  The 28mm lens is calibrated to the camera.  If you don't like 28mm, buy a different camera.  If you prefer zooming to cropping, buy a different camera.  If you really want to use Leica glass at different focal lengths, buy the M.  If you can't handle rangefinder focusing, use the Visoflex.  The actual camera footprint (with a 35mm lens) is little different from the Q.

If the M option is too expensive, go with Fuji.  The average snapshot photographer won't see much difference in quality, particularly if posting to social media and not printing.

So much has been written about changing the focal length of the Q lens, it started almost immediately the first Q was released.  It was predicted for the Q2 and now the Q3 and probably will continue for 4, 5 and 6, or however long Leica keeps the Q series in production.  It won't happen.  The Q will always have a 28mm lens.  Get over it, or just buy a different camera.

[Olaf_ZG]

2 hours ago, T25UFO said:

Get over it, or just buy a different camera.

Thanks for your advice. Got over it, sold the Q, bought another camera. Will skip the Q2 and/or Q2M. That’s 10 grant Leica will not earn on me. And with me many others. Happily there is so much choice out there how to spend money.

If the Q3 will be only 28mm again, I can put the savings for an upgrade somewhere else as well. Not necessarily Leica, as with M they do have competition on lenses.

In the end I will buy sth as GAS works as it works, the question is, who will get the money.

As the Q is a rather success for Leica, they should at least seriously consider/investigate other FL’s. At least, that is what any reasonable business should do. And till then, I keep on hoping.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

There is a long history of other companies offering compact cameras in two focal lengths...Fuji has done it a number of times in their medium format film cameras, Nikon has done it, Plaubel has done it, Ricoh has done it, and I am sure there are others. I for one am very happy that Ricoh introduced the GRIIIx. I liked the GRIII a lot, but always wished for a longer lens. Now I have it. I think Leica is probably unlikely to offer a longer lens, but it would sure be nice. Then the 28mm people could have their Q and love it, and the rest of us who want a longer one could have what we want too. But I think Leica is pretty convinced that cropping is good enough. That seems their direction, given their actions regarding the Q2 (not to mention the 60mp M11).

[Dennis]

I have a Q2M and love it. It is such a unique and powerful camera. To be interested in a Q3 or a Q3P (2023/24), it has to be (ideally) something like that

• 24 or 36 or 47 MP. The current 47MP is excellent, but the files (gorgeous) are enormous; I would prefer 36 or even 24MP.
• 35/1.4 (or 1.7) Summilux. It's a NO for again 28mm or 50mm. I want 35mm
• with the same iso performance of the Q2M. Maybe in two years, it will be possible.
• A joystick to better deal with AF

For the rest, I wouldn't change anything. At least something necessary that I recall.

[Le Chef]

I will more than happily stick with my Q2 and prefer 28mm. If the Q3 came only in 35mm or 50mm I would not buy it,

[nicci78]

Having now both GR III (28mm) and GR IIIx (40mm). 
I can see that even stubborn Ricoh which stick to 28mm forever can change its mind. Except one limited edition attempt with 21mm, replaced later with a simple wide angle converter. A very clever move. 
 

Ricoh GR IIIx proved to be really successful. But fun fact : it is mainly among users of GR III ! They just wanted both focal lengths.

Being compacts, you can have both with you all day. 
But having two Q2… is another story. 

Just like the TL/CL line up, the Q series won’t have much future. Leica just need to launch a compact mirrorless with a bunch of small Summarit-SL or Elmarit-SL et voilà. No need for a second Q focal length. 

Sony faced the same issue after releasing small A7R. RX1R mark II did not any sense anymore. Hence no mark III. 

I rather see Leica put all its effort into merging Q and CL line up into a single small full frame mirrorless with EVF and matching small lenses with aperture ring !!!! 
Rather than pursue a third version of Q. 
 

 

NB : have you noticed that Q2 has the same field of view as a 26mm ? That can explain why some people found of too wide for their needs. 

Edited April 21, 2022 by nicci78

[T25UFO]

2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Having now both GR III (28mm) and GR IIIx (40mm). 
I can see that even stubborn Ricoh which stick to 28mm forever can change its mind. Except one limited edition attempt with 21mm, replaced later with a simple wide angle converter. A very clever move. 
 

Ricoh GR IIIx proved to be really successful. But fun fact : it is mainly among users of GR III ! They just wanted both focal lengths.

Being compacts, you can have both with you all day. 
But having two Q2… is another story. 

Just like the TL/CL line up, the Q series won’t have much future. Leica just need to launch a compact mirrorless with a bunch of small Summarit-SL or Elmarit-SL et voilà. No need for a second Q focal length. 

Sony faced the same issue after releasing small A7R. RX1R mark II did not any sense anymore. Hence no mark III. 

I rather see Leica put all its effort into merging Q and CL line up into a single small full frame mirrorless with EVF and matching small lenses with aperture ring !!!! 
Rather than pursue a third version of Q. 
 

 

NB : have you noticed that Q2 has the same field of view as a 26mm ? That can explain why some people found of too wide for their needs. 

I agree . . . it will be interesting to see what Leica does next,  If, as has been predicted, they abandon the CL/TL format, will they replace it with a hybrid Q derivative?  That would seem a logical step utilising the L mount in a smaller package.  Then, do you design smaller (and cheaper) AF lenses specifically for a smaller full frame camera?  M lenses will always be an option, but really only for existing Leica owners.  A new camera would have to have wider market appeal, and at the moment, the Q fills this gap even at a very high price point.

I know nothing of the mathematics of optical design, but changing the focal length of a fixed lens camera while maintaining the same optical excellence, is probably not as simple as we might think.

Whatever we might think about the Q, no on can deny it has been a huge success for Leica, and part of its wider appeal is because the lens has a similar field of view to a camera phone.  A longer focal length would appeal to the more serious photographers, but maybe not to the wider market in general.

[Stuart Richardson]

I am sure Leica could pull off designing the lens if they want to. I am not sure there is another company in the world with a better track record for designing and producing very compact very high quality lenses. That has been their game since the beginning. They already have tiny, sharp, full frame lenses in their back catalog...like the 40mm Summarit lens for the Leica CM and Minilux and the 40mm Summicron for the film CL. These are both dramatically smaller than the 28mm 1.7 on the Q. I am sure they do not have the corner performance on 47mp, however. Clearly these would need to be updated, but I am sure they can do it. Especially if they decide to make it an f2 or 2.4 instead of a 1.7 (the practical difference of which is not too large). It may even be easier...Leica's 35mm and 40mm lenses have tended to be both smaller and sharper than their 28mm and wider lenses. This is the case with the GRIIIx too. The 40mm lens is even better.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Stuart Richardson

[Le Chef]

If you believe that Leica should launch a Q3 in a 28mm and let’s say 50mm variants, what is the source of business? Existing Q and Q2 owners may well trade up. But who is going to buy the new variant? If it’s only Q/Q2-28 owners essentially trading across then does that give Leica enough business growth to justify the investment? If there are other sources of business who are they and why would they buy?

In addition Leica might be expected to launch M variants of the Q3. Is there enough business to justify that investment? That would mean 6 skus where today we have 2. Do dealers see this expansion as justified and will it help grow their business?

The thinner you slice the pie in the name of growth the greater the investment and the greater the risk.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Le Chef

[nicci78]

Leica tried to play the Sony route. 
Launch RX1 to test the water of full frame mirrorless. Then release RX1R II, A7 & A7R. Watch what stick. 
For Sony their full frame mirrorless were an instant success. 
That means RX1 adventure must end. 

Sadly for Leica, Q were supposed to pave the way to SL ! Surprisingly, it totally took over the SL. 
Q2 were a success too and SL2 not a good seller. 
So a look alike Sony plan failed totally. 

Now Leica can reboot the plan with a smaller SL with matching smaller lenses (after Sony G Master lenses are smaller than L-mount offerings). 
Or Leica can embraced the Ricoh route. Always faithful to 28mm, found success as it got loads of additional sales with 40mm variant ! 
 

Q2 Monochrom is a good idea. However it is a dumb one for Q2 owners. Who really want the same 28mm twice ? 

A 40mm Q2X can bring many additional sales. With people ready to invest in a second one. 
Or you can have a 28mm Q2 Monochrom + 40mm Q2X colour. 

Or Q2 colour and Q2X colour  

Just like Ricoh, instead of selling additional lenses. You are selling more bodies with lens attached. 
 

Why not get 10K€ instead of 5K€ from Q fanatics ? 

Edited April 21, 2022 by nicci78

[Kim Dahl]

25 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Leica tried to play the Sony route. 
Launch RX1 to test the water of full frame mirrorless. Then release RX1R II, A7 & A7R. Watch what stick. 
For Sony their full frame mirrorless were an instant success. 
That means RX1 adventure must end. 

Sadly for Leica, Q were supposed to pave the way to SL ! Surprisingly, it totally took over the SL. 
Q2 were a success too and SL2 not a good seller. 
So a look alike Sony plan failed totally. 

Now Leica can reboot the plan with a smaller SL with matching smaller lenses (after Sony G Master lenses are smaller than L-mount offerings). 
Or Leica can embraced the Ricoh route. Always faithful to 28mm, found success as it got loads of additional sales with 40mm variant ! 
 

Q2 Monochrom is a good idea. However it is a dumb one for Q2 owners. Who really want the same 28mm twice ? 

A 40mm Q2X can bring many additional sales. With people ready to invest in a second one. 
Or you can have a 28mm Q2 Monochrom + 40mm Q2X colour. 

Or Q2 colour and Q2X colour  

Just like Ricoh, instead of selling additional lenses. You are selling more bodies with lens attached. 
 

Why not get 10K€ instead of 5K€ from Q fanatics ? 

👍🏻 I think that's right.  The SL (2) market is so large (Canon, Nikon and Sony) and today they are so far ahead that the train has run.  Leica realized this a long time ago.  They have not met a single deadline in the SL series of lenses.  They will only be finished because otherwise Leica will have a hard time surviving the criticism they will get.  Just look at there APSC line that they stop with.  When 24 and 21 mm are made, there will be no more SL lenses from Leica.  That's what I think.  And I think it's important that customers know that premise.  Of course I can be wrong and in many many years there may be a one new SL lens.  But I do not think so.
 So an extension of the Q series with 40/50 mm - special models etc. and there Leica M as they are completely alone.  

This is where Leica shines.  And today M is only for rich people who do not have to make a living from photography.  

I live off press photos and I only stick with Leica because I grew up with the Leica M and love the brand.  

I wish with all my heart ❤️ that Leica finds its place but it is really difficult. 

[nicci78]

Ricoh’s move is really interesting! 
 

They did not go Sigma route with multiple dp Merril cameras with different focal lengths. 
A bad camera will not sell no matter what. 
A bad camera will never be sold multiple times to the same person !! 
It was totally dumb. They tried again, with an even worst cameras :  dp Quattro series. 

On the other hand, Ricoh GR III is excellent. It sell very well and has a cult following, that any manufacturers can only dreamed of. 
They capitalised on it with wide angle converter, a classic since GR digital. Just to replace analog GR21. 
What’s more ? They drop the teleconverter. Because they thought that crop mode is enough. Guess what ? Not really. 
So instead of GR IV. Ricoh can saved R&D and sell once again another GR the IIIx for existing customers and to everybody allergic to 28mm !!! 
Brilliant way to generate revenue without investing a fortune in research. Just a new lens design. 
 

I only got interested in Ricoh with GR IIIx ! And now I am fully invested with GR III and both converters : GW-4 for 21mm and GT-2 for 75mm. 

If smart Leica should replicate it ! A 40mm Q2X will pleased new customers and current ones ! 

In all honesty. I would have bought a 40mm Q2 instantly. I love this focal length. GR IIIx is the most used by far between my two GR. 
 

Now Ricoh has time and money to invest into the future GR V.
Not IV, Ricoh likes to count variants as a proper model : GR1 then GR1s (s as second) and GR10 (which is the third). Followed by GR21 (is the fourth) and finally GR1v (v as V in Roman numerical). 
And 4 is kind of bad luck in Asia. 

Edited April 21, 2022 by nicci78

[tom.w.bn]

Is the Ricoh example valid? Just because something is possible does not mean it is a success. I read somewhere that the GR IIIx is not a big success, 28mm is clearly the more versatile focal length. 

 

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Look here: Leica Q

[nicci78]

I talked to a Ricoh imaging representative last week. (Ricoh has a flagship store in Paris) GR IIIx is a smashing success. It exceeds expectations : bringing new customers and as a second body for existing one. 
So Ricoh is really proud of GR IIIx 

 

By the way GR IIIx lens is much better than GR III. That’s maybe why I prefer shooting with it rather than the original GR III. And it is a 28mm fan talking 

Edited April 21, 2022 by nicci78