Leica M11: A Revolution – Review by Elmar S.

[Jeff S]

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29 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

A live RGB histogram based on RAW data is the holy grail of histograms, but I'd just be happy with one based off the live view image like everyone else does right now.

The original M Monochrom had a RAW histogram, appearing after the initial preview.

Jeff

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, Jeff S said:

The original M Monochrom had a RAW histogram, appearing after the initial preview.

Jeff

Would love to have that in every camera I own, even if it wasn't live.

[Jeff S]

1 minute ago, hdmesa said:

Would love to have that in every camera I own, even if it wasn't live.

I’d like it (had it on my MM), but I don’t really need it based on my ‘conservative’ exposures and smallish print sizes. Once I make enough pics and prints with a new camera (enough to get used to all kinds of usage and handling characteristics), I feel comfortable without the technical aids.  And if lighting is tricky, and results are critical, there’s always bracketing, tripod use, etc.  But I’m just an amateur enthusiast, so that would be a rare exception.

Jeff

[SrMi]

One last comment to the topic of DR and exposure .

Modern cameras indeed have 14 (or almost 12 stops of DR, depending on how it is measured), but that is the case only if the sensor is saturated (aka ETTR). One stop below saturation means one stop less DR in the image (approximately). Still, plenty to go if one does not vastly underexpose. ETTR makes sense only at base ISO, where we typically have plenty of DR anyway. As the light lowers and the needed ISO increases, the most relevant exposure strategy maximizes the exposure (aperture and shutter speed). This is easiest done using Auto ISO with the slowest acceptable shutter speed: for still subjects, something like (1/2f)s, for moving subjects, a manually set shutter speed.

[2M6TTLs]

On 1/13/2022 at 11:44 PM, frame-it said:

nice review

And thank goodness, from someone who takes pictures and doesn't just 'talk' to sensors and drop artistic sounding quotes.

[elmars]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb 2M6TTLs:

doesn't just 'talk' to sensors

You didn´t get it right: It is the sensor that talks not the photographer.

[elmars]

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vor 9 Stunden schrieb Rollin:

@elmars Great write up - thank you!

I have been using your Lightroom Calibration settings when working up my M10 files every since I stumbled across them in the M10 vs. M240 - Farben und so ... thread (thank goodness for Google translate), and they have helped give my images a natural feel I desire, and should have said thank you long ago. Have you developed any such LrC settings for the M11 yet?

 

 

I am very happy that my work was useful for You and perhaps some others. And no, I have no settings for the M11. The colors look so good to me that I felt no need for this for the first time with a new M.

[elmars]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb jonoslack:

Hi Elmar

Indeed frivolous will do - but I've just read your report again, and it's both comprehensive and succinct!

I hope you're enjoying your new M11 (I've still got Leica's one hostage, but I'll have to pay the piper in the end!)

 

Thank You, Jono! I am very by Your compliment. And  I am happy that the younger generation is frivolous anymore.

Today I will have a little walk with my M11 (if work is not more than expected). It is still a great pleasure to use it.

[elmars]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb hdmesa:

As I mentioned, someone was talking about using exposure comp based on what they did with their M10, which I said wasn't a good assumption since this is a new sensor.

As for ETTR, every shot has an optimal exposure – that may require moving to the right of the meter, it may require moving to the left. You can still make a good image if you're one stop below optimal, but you could make a better image with an optimal exposure. Modern sensor are indeed better, but at high ISO, noise in pulled shadows is still an issue that can be reduced by getting the best exposure possible. ETTR requires zero overhead/thought process once you know how the meter in the camera works compared to how the histogram looks in Raw Digger. Why not look at a few RAWs from high contrast scenes and see if you could be letting in more light without blowing the highlights? 

In film days I had a Canon EOS 1n because I thought I needed to meter the exposure like Ansel Adams with spot metering. I strolled around an M camera for three years. It had great attraction to me but I always thought of the things it cannot do (spot metering for example). Then, on a Sunday afternoon, the decision came on me: I decided not to need all the perfectness off the Canon and go for the tiny little lightweight M6TTL. I never regretted this and I never missed spot metering.

What I want to say is Jonos message in other words: You don´t have to be perfect for great photos. There are big tolerances in the system. And with the M11 it is better than ever on an M camera: We never had more dynamic range and a multifield metering that prevent blown out highlights automatically in nearly all situations.

[elmars]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb elmars:

I am very by Your compliment

Pleased I wanted to say.

[Photoworks]

I am only watching not to overexpose and ETTR is a useless concept for me with Leica, I usually have a -0.7 EV adjustment all the time.

But here is a little inside on the histogram... take a photo and play the image with the histogram on, the zoom in to 100% and move the preview to different section of the image. You will notice that the histogram keeps changing based on what you are showing in the crop... 

[hdmesa]

6 hours ago, elmars said:

In film days I had a Canon EOS 1n because I thought I needed to meter the exposure like Ansel Adams with spot metering. I strolled around an M camera for three years. It had great attraction to me but I always thought of the things it cannot do (spot metering for example). Then, on a Sunday afternoon, the decision came on me: I decided not to need all the perfectness off the Canon and go for the tiny little lightweight M6TTL. I never regretted this and I never missed spot metering.

What I want to say is Jonos message in other words: You don´t have to be perfect for great photos. There are big tolerances in the system. And with the M11 it is better than ever on an M camera: We never had more dynamic range and a multifield metering that prevent blown out highlights automatically in nearly all situations.

I don’t strive for exact optimal exposure for everyday and casual shooting, which is what the M is probably most used for. And when I do set up a more careful shot and want to make sure I get the best exposure, I simply bracket and sort it out in post. 

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I don’t strive for exact optimal exposure for everyday and casual shooting, which is what the M is probably most used for. And when I do set up a more careful shot and want to make sure I get the best exposure, I simply bracket and sort it out in post. 

From my observations, ETTR is primarily important for the largest and the smallest sensors . People use MF sensors to eke the technical maximum out of a photo. The smaller sensors (m43) do not have that much DR. Exposing two stops below optimum does show enough noise to be bothersome in some situations.

Most cameras already have enough DR for high-quality images. However, revisit your exposure strategy before switching cameras if you feel that your camera does not have enough DR (too much noise).

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

From my observations, ETTR is primarily important for the largest and the smallest sensors . People use MF sensors to eke the technical maximum out of a photo. The smaller sensors (m43) do not have that much DR. Exposing two stops below optimum does show enough noise to be bothersome in some situations.

Most cameras already have enough DR for high-quality images. However, revisit your exposure strategy before switching cameras if you feel that your camera does not have enough DR (too much noise).

Now that the M camera has hit 60mp, it's going to be fair game for medium format shooters to either add an M system or switch entirely to M as I'm in the process of doing. An A7R4 or A1 with Loxia or CV APO lenses is the only thing that would be similar with regard to IQ, small system size, low weight, and manual focus lenses with aperture rings. 

I didn't want to go too far into the discussion because it's not something most M shooters care about, but hitting that optimal exposure does make a difference, even for the most recent sensors on 135 format cameras. On my GFX 100S or R5 when I exposure bracket, I shoot what the meter says to do, and then add +1/3 stops for two or three more shots. Every single time, there is one of those bracketed shots that stands out over the others. That stand-out image is noticeably better than the rest after editing each to taste. That doesn't mean that if I'd not bracketed, I would have not have been able to have made a good image, but bracketing does let me sometimes make a better image.

But as I've said, I don't do that when I'm casually shooting, I just don't want to blow my highlights and then end up with nothing.

I think one of the best benefits of a sensor like the ones in the M11, A7R4, and GFX 100S is no longer having to do HDR merging of multiple images just to get clean, raised shadows at the same time as getting detailed highlights. It's a great time to be a photographer!

[Herr Barnack]

Quote

 

But there is no free lunch...  the shutter has to do a more complex operation (close shutter, exposition with opening and closing the shutter, open shutter again), which makes a different shutter sound. It is not louder than the M10 sound, but it is not like a shot, it is like a short, very fast rumbling. And there is a little sound after turning on the camera. The shutter has to open, what is slightly hearable. After that the M11 is ready to shoot. Startup time and wakeup time are a bit faster than the M10.

... Another practical improvement that I love, is the lightweight of the M11. It is 130 g lighter than the M10 (530 g with battery to 660 g). The top cover is not out of brass but aluminum (like the M262 and the M6). People who want brass have to buy the silver version (and carry 640 g with battery). 130 g is a lot. You can feel it immediately and it is a great advantage in steady use. Of course You get no brassing camera, but this wouldn´t happen, so I guess, with a brass top cover too. The black M11 is painted with a special, very durable paint. I like it very much because it has a good grip and is not as slippery as the black anodizing of the M10...

@elmars Thank you for an excellent review.

The above helps to quiet my concerns about the shutter sound and speed of operation.  That said, the shutter seems to be awfully busy during normal operation.  I have to wonder about its longevity.  My question is:  Will the shutter still be going strong after 250,000 exposures?  Or will we see a wave of M11 shutter replacements in the future? 

Yes, there are actually M users out there who do shoot that much.  100,000 (or more) exposures per year is not uncommon for working pros.  The M camera seems to be the camera of choice for the majority of Magnum photographers.  I hope in the long run, Magnum shooters (and the rest of we mere mortals) will not be disappointed with the M11 and its shutter durability.

There have been beaucoup fits of histrionics over the black finish.  In the photographs of the black M11s that I have seen, it appears to be a nice looking finish, to my eye.  Durable is good, IMHO.  Having a little traction is better than having a slippery finish.  For those who want slippery, there is the silver chrome M11.  Regarding the feeling of lightness, that is one of the many things I like about my Q2.  My brass plated MP 240 Safari feels like a brick by comparison.  "Light" does not equate to a "cheap" feel IMO.

The aluminum top plate on the black paint M11 has been lambasted by some, saying that it will crack and chip if dropped, leaving the camera with ugly chunks missing out of the top plate.  There is a little known secret to fixing this:  Be careful with your $9000 USD camera and don't drop it in the first place!  😉  Yes, I know - accidents do happen.  But still - a little carefulness goes a long way.

At the end of the day, after all the compulsive nitpicking and crankiness has died out, it seems to me that Leica has given us a worthy successor to the M10 and M10R.  The M11 has many advancements that are not merely steps forward, but leaps forward in terms of both technology and the advances in imaging performance/image quality which that technology produces.  I can't see how that is a bad thing. 

When all is said and done, isn't one of the prime reasons for buying these megadollar M cameras and lenses image quality?

Edited January 19, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[elmars]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb Herr Barnack:

Will the shutter still be going strong after 250,000 exposures?  Or will we see a wave of M11 shutter replacements in the future? 

Of course I cannot give any garanty. But what I know from the M240 that Leica has certain specifications for the durability of a shutter with a number of shot that notmal photographers do not reach. They test this and such a test takes days with steady shooting. I saw a machine doing it. And they said that the shutters normally surpasses the specifications. So I think You should not worry about this. 
 

vor 35 Minuten schrieb Herr Barnack:

image quality?

Yes, but mostly not because of 60 MP but because of color rendition and Data quality. You can nearly do all with the data. 

[hdmesa]

7 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

@elmars Thank you for an excellent review.

The above helps to quiet my concerns about the shutter sound and speed of operation.  That said, the shutter seems to be awfully busy during normal operation.  I have to wonder about its longevity.  My question is:  Will the shutter still be going strong after 250,000 exposures?  Or will we see a wave of M11 shutter replacements in the future? 

Yes, there are actually M users out there who do shoot that much.  100,000 (or more) exposures per year is not uncommon for working pros.  The M camera seems to be the camera of choice for the majority of Magnum photographers.  I hope in the long run, Magnum shooters (and the rest of we mere mortals) will not be disappointed with the M11 and its shutter durability.

...

 

The M11 shutter behavior may be new to Leica M users, but it's how every other mirrorless camera's mechanical shutter works – stays open to meter, then closes before starting the exposure. I'm used to the sound of EFCS on my R5, so when I change it to mechanical, it sounds like two shots are being fired off at the same time by comparison. I think other manufacturers still rate their shutters based on mechanical shutter mode, though.

I do think it would be a good idea for Leica to add EFCS with a firmware update unless there is a hardware limitation that prohibits it.

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by hdmesa

[shirubadanieru]

6 hours ago, hdmesa said:

 

The M11 shutter behavior may be new to Leica M users, but it's how every other mirrorless camera's mechanical shutter works – stays open to meter, then closes before starting the exposure. I'm used to the sound of EFCS on my R5, so when I change it to mechanical, it sounds like two shots are being fired off at the same time by comparison. I think other manufacturers still rate their shutters based on mechanical shutter mode, though.

I do think it would be a good idea for Leica to add EFCS with a firmware update unless there is a hardware limitation that prohibits it.

 

I literally shot it side by side with the M10R and couldn’t tell the difference, too much fuss over nothing. It’s the sound…of the shutter…just, focus on taking pictures lol that’s it, everything will be ok, nothing will break down because the shutter pitch is 1% different from the previous Leica. It’s ok, we’re all gonna be ok lol 

Anyway, getting my M11 tomorrow and can’t wait!

[Jon Warwick]

19 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Now that the M camera has hit 60mp, it's going to be fair game for medium format shooters to either add an M system or switch entirely to M as I'm in the process of doing. 

It's a fair comment.  I have the GFX100S too, and even for whopping 60" wide prints for some subjects, I already found there was less difference than one might expect in terms of resolution versus my previously-owned 47mp SL2 + SL 50mm Summicron.  Moving onto looking at DNG samples off the 60mp M11, at 60" again my gut feel is it's not always easy to argue the 100mp camera looks that overwhelmingly different to the M11 (at least when the latter is paired to an ASPH lens) in terms of fine detail capture for some subjects. Nothing scientific, but I also found the M11 reminded me a lot of my GFX100S sensor in terms of large post-processing headroom from dynamic range and tonal response.

Would I personally ditch the 100mp medium format for an M11? Not yet, mainly given I haven't seen yet how it might compare to the 60mp M11 for subjects where fine detail really matters IMHO, ie, a view across to the mountains, where the very small pine trees on the distant mountainside can look a bit fake if not accurately resolved. But perhaps I will find that 60mp is getting close to sufficient for me for landscapes, even at 60" print sizes?  TBD for me.

The bigger possibilities of an M11 over my medium format that I currently see is tons of "native" M-mount lenses where I can more easily choose different renderings, ie, from the super resolving Voigtlander APO Lanthars or Leica M Summicron APOs for perfect edge-to-edge sharpness (ideal for my landscapes) .... through to to lenses with less contrast & less acutance like the M 50mm Pre-ASPH, 1.2 Noctilux, 50 v5 Summicron,  50 ASPH wide open  (all could be more gently pleasing for portraits).  Sure I could adapt a non-GF lens onto the GFX, but the "native GF" lenses are generally more focused on the rendering being remarkably sharp edge-to-edge with high contrast. There is an "in your face sharp" look of the GF-mount lenses IMHO that is arguably harder to escape from, when compared to the multitude of possible renderings available from so many M mount lens options.

Given my goal is a gentler rendering for Portraits, I really really don't want to be capturing excessive detail like pores or miniscule hairs ....it's absurd, IMHO, that these are visible on digital when in reality it is invisible-to-the-naked-eye detail on (say) perfect children's skin!  It looks totally unnatural. My SL2 took me in the wrong direction here vs my M's 24mp.  So I would be curious to know if the 18mp S-DNG on the M11 might give a different and "softer rendering" at (say) 20" wide prints compared to a down-sampled 40mp or 60mp file? .....if that was the case (I have no clue if it is), that really would be of interest to me in providing a flexibility of "different renderings" for "different subjects".

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Jon Warwick

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[Herr Barnack]

If you want to learn just how revolutionary the M11 is, watch this tech talk.  The technology in this camera and its image making capabilities are simply staggering. 

After watching this deep dive into the M11, all I can say is the M11 is well worth its asking price.  Its performance is mind blowing - and performance is what we are paying for.