Now the 6,350€ question : M11-S 24MP BSI in 2023 ? [Merged]

[SrMi]

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6 hours ago, Chaemono said:

I looked at at 33 MP high ISO low-light ARW files from the α7 IV and I don’t like the noise. I think you may be right, M11-S with the SL2-S sensor could be the better option. Not sure if heat in the Sony camera and how the sensor is implemented affected the noise in the files I looked at. They are available for download on the internet. 

a7IV seems to have a bit more noise but also shows a bit more detail (link). 

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[Chaemono]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb SrMi:

a7IV seems to have a bit more noise but also shows a bit more detail (link). 

The detail of this 33 MP sensor is very impressive. One cannot push shadows to +100 in the ISO 12800 file like one can do with the S5, though. The S5 is still super clean in the shadows at that ISO. Maybe Leica can implement some dual native ISO. It’s amazing what Panasonic did with the S5 at ISO 640.

[SrMi]

7 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

The detail of this 33 MP sensor is very impressive. One cannot push shadows to +100 in the ISO 12800 file like one can do with the S5, though. The S5 is still super clean in the shadows at that ISO. Maybe Leica can implement some dual native ISO. It’s amazing what Panasonic did with the S5 at ISO 640.

Sony's 33MP sensor has dual conversion gain, but it kicks in earlier (link).

[adan]

I think Leica hopes the variable resolution will solve the need for an "additional" M11 type (except the de rigueur "-P BP" version ).

Right now, I am not especially impressed by the ISO improvement at the M11's lower resolutions.

But some other sites mention that the innovative scaling process has not been perfected yet, and may just need firmware/software tuning (by Leica, Adobe, C1 or others), so we shall see.

I am keeping my mind open.

However, the next M I buy will have the ISO capabilty of the SL2-S - or better. Or I won't buy it. Plain and simple.

Price, file size, resolution - don't care much.

Shooting a hand-held 135 f/4 or 3.4 to document interesting events in ever-darker places - a must.

That is a feature I will pay $9000 for (but don't tell Leica. )

The M10 can handle everything else.

[Chaemono]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb adan:

…

However, the next M I buy will have the ISO capabilty of the SL2-S - or better. Or I won't buy it. Plain and simple.

…

And if it doesn't, you might have to get into landscape photography.

[Chaemono]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb SrMi:

Sony's 33MP sensor has dual conversion gain, but it kicks in earlier (link).

The α7 IV ISO 12800 file from DPR produces white pixels in pushed shadows noise (+100), the S5 none and neither does the SL2-S.

[M Journey]

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On 1/13/2022 at 1:50 AM, nicci78 said:

by the way in Kai's video, he stated that electronic shutter is not good at all, like other 60MP camera's

 

M camera don't need stacked sensor : no AF, no continous shooting, no video. All three benefits from stacked. Otherwise don't bother. 

 

BSI 24MP sensor is what M desperately needs. Kai seems not really impressed by 60MP nor binning mode. 

Am I the only one who doesn’t think Kai’s videos are informative or funny?  I keep seeing people saying how he is funny.  I’ve seen some of his videos.  Hard to get past the first few minutes.  Seems like just a bunch of first impressions and attempts at being funny/quirky…

[adan]

3 hours ago, Chaemono said:

And if it doesn't, you might have to get into landscape photography.

Ugggh - a fate worse than Death!

However, SrMi posted a little high-ISO test that seems to show the M11 is "close enough" to the SL2-S at ISO 50K-plus exposures (12500 pushed 3 stops) to be acceptable.

If it gets confirmed by other sources (old journalistic habit: "If your mother tells you she loves you - get a second source for confirmation." )

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by adan

[V23]

Just a thought, reading lots of M11 reviews and comments. 60mp seems to be an issue for some of the users and potential buyers. Do you think that Leica would be wise to introduce a 24mp M11 body as they done similarly with SL-2 and SL-2S? Personally, I am very happy with my SL-2S using it with L mount lenses as well as M lenses. I would consider an M11 24mp for walk-around body with just one lens (nothing wrong doing it with SL-2S + M lens), just a different experience/setup. Any interest in such a camera especially now that M10 is out of production?

[Jeff S]

Jeff

[Kwesi]

2 hours ago, V23 said:

 

Just a thought, reading lots of M11 reviews and comments. 60mp seems to be an issue for some of the users and potential buyers. Do you think that Leica would be wise to introduce a 24mp M11 body as they done similarly with SL-2 and SL-2S? Personally, I am very happy with my SL-2S using it with L mount lenses as well as M lenses. I would consider an M11 24mp for walk-around body with just one lens (nothing wrong doing it with SL-2S + M lens), just a different experience/setup. Any interest in such a camera especially now that M10 is out of production?

Im afraid that's not going to happen for a variety pf reasons, but primarily because unlike the SL system where Leica has stiff competition on price, the M enjoys a monopoly.

SL2-s was introduced to make the SL system more able to compete on price with the Lumix and Sigma L mount cameras and also Sony A7 series

[wizard]

The M11 is unique in that it offers a variable resolution full sensor size output of 60 or 36 or 18MP. So why on earth would Leica want to produce a 24MP M11 then? 

[Herr Barnack]

Quote

...Do you think that Leica would be wise to introduce a 24mp M11 body as they done similarly with SL-2 and SL-2S?..

Since the M11 already has both 18mp and 36mp capability, I doubt that we will see a stand alone 24mp M11.  Stranger things have happened, though.

The M11's ability to record at three different megapixel resolutions is a huge advantage.  18mp would be good for electronic only sharing, 36mp for making medium size prints and 60mp for making very large prints.

If a photographer was shooting an event where prints were not wanted or needed, shoot in 18mp.  For another job where huge prints is the end use, shoot in 60mp.  This ability to choose also lets you not squander hard drive storage space needlessly.  This is one of the M11's greatest features IMHO.

[Photoworks]

7 hours ago, V23 said:

 

Just a thought, reading lots of M11 reviews and comments. 60mp seems to be an issue for some of the users and potential buyers. Do you think that Leica would be wise to introduce a 24mp M11 body as they done similarly with SL-2 and SL-2S? Personally, I am very happy with my SL-2S using it with L mount lenses as well as M lenses. I would consider an M11 24mp for walk-around body with just one lens (nothing wrong doing it with SL-2S + M lens), just a different experience/setup. Any interest in such a camera especially now that M10 is out of production?

nope, no interest

7 hours ago, V23 said:

60mp seems to be an issue for some of the users and potential buyers

there is no difference shooting a 40mp camera.
the people complaining have mostly not tried the camera..

[Jared]

I don't see a reason to make a 24 MP version. The sensor in the M11 is as good as it gets in terms of quantum efficiency, read noise, and dark current--quite a bit better than that in the SL2S. If you want the better SNR and less sensitivity to flaws in technique, just shoot the M11 at 36 MP or 18 MP. No benefit I can see to a 24 MP version. I'd rather have the flexibility to shoot 18 MP when I am just doing snapshots, and higher resolution on pictures that may benefit. Heck, I wouldn't even mind just having 60 MP and incorporating a down-sampling routine into my workflow for many images. Same benefit as binning (considering the M11 isn't really binning on-chip per se but performing some sort of software down-sampling prior to storing a DNG).

[IkarusJohn]

23 minutes ago, Jared said:

I don't see a reason to make a 24 MP version. The sensor in the M11 is as good as it gets in terms of quantum efficiency, read noise, and dark current--quite a bit better than that in the SL2S. If you want the better SNR and less sensitivity to flaws in technique, just shoot the M11 at 36 MP or 18 MP. No benefit I can see to a 24 MP version. I'd rather have the flexibility to shoot 18 MP when I am just doing snapshots, and higher resolution on pictures that may benefit. Heck, I wouldn't even mind just having 60 MP and incorporating a down-sampling routine into my workflow for many images. Same benefit as binning (considering the M11 isn't really binning on-chip per se but performing some sort of software down-sampling prior to storing a DNG).

I think the 60MP ship has probably sailed.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Absolutely zero interest for me. There is no disadvantage other than resolution to using the 18MP mode on the M11. And no advantage to having an M11 variant that only captures a lower resolution. I use it all the time and I now count being able to switch resolutions dynamically as one of the M11's best new features. I wish all my other high resolution cameras had the same feature.

Gordon

[LocalHero1953]

5 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

18mp would be good for electronic only sharing, 36mp for making medium size prints and 60mp for making very large prints.

Are you telling me I need 36mp for medium sized prints? Bu&&3r, I'm going to have to get rid of my three 24mp cameras and buy a M11.

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[Herr Barnack]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Are you telling me I need 36mp for medium sized prints? Bu&&3r, I'm going to have to get rid of my three 24mp cameras and buy a M11.

No - I was simply giving an example of possible uses for the three different resolutions that the M11 offers.

My 24mp M-P 240 is capable of making exhibit quality prints at 24x36 inches.  I would expect a 24x36 inch print from the M11's 60mp files would look even better than what my 240 can produce. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[LocalHero1953]

41 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

I would expect a 24x36 inch print from the M11's 60mp files would look even better than what my 240 can produce. 

In my ignorance, not having made such a comparison, I would expect to see little difference, but I’m willing to be convinced. I admit I value photos by what they show rather than their bleeding edge image quality though.