M35 apo but no body, advice please

[M Journey]

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I am currently not yet in the Leica ecosystem (current using Nikon Z).  I saw someone using a Leica at an event a few months ago which got me intrigued.  I started to watch some Leica videos and reading this site.  Two months ago I put myself on a few waiting lists for the 35 m apo and the M11.

I was notified today that a 35 m apo is on its way to a local dealer and that it can be mine!  The problem is I don’t have a body.  I am intent on getting the m11 when it comes out and do not want to pay a large sum for a new body until then.  The perfect scenario would have been for the lens to be available at or after I get a m11 but I don’t want to lose my spot on the waiting list.

I would like some suggestions on what I should do.  Should I pick up a used m240 or a used m10 to shoot with?  I intend to trade in this body when I pick up a m11.  I am ok with losing some value on the trade in so that I have something to shoot with over what could be the next 6 months to a year.

I’m a very casual shooter and would use this on vacation trips and some work events.  All the pictures I take are for fun and not for profit or required of my job.  I don’t take my z system with my daily but that might change with the m.

I imagine that over 6 months I would lose around $500 value on a m240 and as much as $2000 on a used m10.  Would the experience on a m10 be worth the difference?  I may also wait until after the likely m11 announcement on Jan 13 to take advantage of the quick dip for used m10 bodies.

Any advice would be appreciated.  I’m very excited to finally embark on the M experience.

 

 

 

[Knipsknecht]

… just try one of these with your Nikon Z until a M11 will be available: https://techartpro.com/?product=techart-leica-m-nikon-z-autofocus-adapter-tzm-01

[jaapv]

Nothing wrong with an M240 and the 35 APO...

[UliWer]

Well, an adapter which mimics an autofocus for an M-lens might be not the ideal way to approach an M-camera. There are also "normal" adapters for M-lenses to be used on a Nikon-Z:

https://www.novoflex.de/en/products-637/lens-adapters//adapterfinder-products/camera/nikon-z-mirrorless/objectiv/31.html

[pippy]

2 hours ago, DreamingaboutM said:

...I imagine that over 6 months I would lose around $500 value on a m240 and as much as $2000 on a used m10.  Would the experience on a m10 be worth the difference?...

No; not really.

There are many detail differences between the M240 and the M10 - as you would expect - but if you've never yet used a digital-M then the 240 is as good a place to learn the ropes as any.

In fact you might not lose as much as $500 on the M240 if you buy wisely in the first place. The 240 has been out for many years and the used price has stabilised to a certain extent whereas prices for a used M10, it being still current, will drop markedly after the M11 begins to become 'normally available'.

Best of luck whichever way you choose to go and enjoy your 35 and the 11 when it arrives.

Philip.

[a.noctilux]

Welcome @DreamingaboutM

Strange situation, not easy to advice.

In your shoes, I'd take M240 over M10.

As Philip wrote, the pricing is more stable if you sell later on...

 

M240 (or family) can be a very good body for your new lens.

Maybe you would love, you are the only one to know, so just try one of those.

I bought M10 before M240 (strange also), and more other M of the M240 family, 246 monochrome, M-D screenless, 262 (this one before M10),

their outputs are enough for me.

[M Journey]

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2 hours ago, Knipsknecht said:

… just try one of these with your Nikon Z until a M11 will be available: https://techartpro.com/?product=techart-leica-m-nikon-z-autofocus-adapter-tzm-01

Thanks for the suggestion.  I will probably get one of these down the line as I won't be replacing my Z system since Leica doesn't have many options for telephoto and zoom.

 

32 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Nothing wrong with an M240 and the 35 APO...

I did ask my local dealer if they had a used 240 and they didn't.  Can't seem to find one from any Lecia dealer or KEH at the moment.  Any caution against buying one off ebay?

 

8 minutes ago, pippy said:

No; not really.

There are many detail differences between the M240 and the M10 - as you would expect - but if you've never yet used a digital-M then the 240 is as good a place to learn the ropes as any.

In fact you might not lose as much as $500 on the M240 if you buy wisely in the first place. The 240 has been out for many years and the used price has stabilized to a certain extent whereas prices for a used M10, it being still current, will drop markedly after the M11 begins to become 'normally available'.

Best of luck whichever way you choose to go and enjoy your 35 and the 11 when it arrives.

Philip.

Since I would be trading it back in when picking up a M11, I would lose 10-20% at least since most Leica dealers will give 80-90% resale value on trade in, and then there's the pesky tax I would pay on purchase and not get back on resale...

Basically I think of it as renting a used body and a much lower rate, which I am ok with.  Just renting a m10 for a day is over $100 from a rental shop.

 

[pippy]

23 minutes ago, DreamingaboutM said:

...I did ask my local dealer if they had a used 240 and they didn't.  Can't seem to find one from any Lecia dealer or KEH at the moment.  Any caution against buying one off ebay?...

Really? That's quite surprising but obviously you know your available used stock better than I do! If you don't intend to shoot movie-clips then an M262 would be a superb alternative choice. They also - from what I've seen - tend to hold s/h value quite well.

Buying from eBay can be very good if you buy from a trustworthy source. The going base-rate for an M240 over here seems to be around $2,100 so pretty much the same amount that you would write-off completely if you bought an M10. Even if - and it's a big IF - you can't get back the same amout in a few months time you will still be well up on the deal financially.

Good luck.

Philip.

[Kreeshp]

My somewhat unconventional suggestion is to pick up a used SL2-S with an adapter for M lenses.  When the M11 comes out, the SL2-S should still be a current model and thus you won't lose as much if you decide to re-sell it.  And you might even decide to keep it.

I bought an M10-P as my first digital M and having lived with it for almost a year, am coming to the realization that I may end up with an SL2-S very soon for its IBIS and low light performance and ease of focussing manual lenses.  The singular thing holding me back is the larger form factor of the SL2-S versus the M.  Another plus in favor of the SL2-S is it's considerably less costly than any current digital M body, and I'm a big proponent of spending money on lenses, not digital bodies.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Kreeshp
spelling

[Jeff S]

I just randomly checked 3 popular dealers and found used M240s at each… Leica Miami, Leica SoHo and Tamarkin.  I’m confident I could find more with time and effort.  And no, I wouldn’t recommend eBay, preferring to shop at trusted dealers with warranty, return, service and trade policies, especially in advance of a possible later trade transaction.  Leica Miami used prices may be higher, but items are carefully checked and often sent to Leica or DAG for any issues prior to sale.  They also provide 80% trade-in against new purchases (I don’t know a single dealer at 90% as you commented… more commonly 70% at company owned Leica stores). And there are typically no taxes currently for new items shipped out of state. 
 

Jeff

[M Journey]

23 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

I just randomly checked 3 popular dealers and found used M240s at each… Leica Miami, Leica SoHo and Tamarkin.  I’m confident I could find more with time and effort.  And no, I wouldn’t recommend eBay, preferring to shop at trusted dealers with warranty, return, service and trade policies, especially in advance of a possible later trade transaction.  Leica Miami used prices may be higher, but items are carefully checked and often sent to Leica or DAG for any issues prior to sale.  They also provide 80% trade-in against new purchases (I don’t know a single dealer at 90% as you commented… more commonly 70% at company owned Leica stores). And there are typically no taxes currently for new items shipped out of state. 
 

Jeff

 

Thanks.  I'll keep an eye out at the one the Miami store has in stock.  I like the idea that it has recently been serviced so that if there are any issues I can attribute it to the lens.

 

53 minutes ago, pippy said:

Really? That's quite surprising but obviously you know your available used stock better than I do! If you don't intend to shoot movie-clips then an M262 would be a superb alternative choice. They also - from what I've seen - tend to hold s/h value quite well.

Buying from eBay can be very good if you buy from a trustworthy source. The going base-rate for an M240 over here seems to be around $2,100 so pretty much the same amount that you would write-off completely if you bought an M10. Even if - and it's a big IF - you can't get back the same amout in a few months time you will still be well up on the deal financially.

Good luck.

Philip.

If I find a good deal on a 240 on ebay that would be a no brainer.  Hard to find one in decent condition for less than $3500 from my quick searches.  If I find one for $2500 or less in silver chrome I would probably keep it as a second body.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, DreamingaboutM said:

I did ask my local dealer if they had a used 240 and they didn't.  Can't seem to find one from any Lecia dealer or KEH at the moment.  Any caution against buying one off ebay?

Personally I would stick with dealers or reputed sellers, if only for the guaranty. There is a good reason that there are few 240ies out there - the owners are hanging on to them.

[Jeff S]

46 minutes ago, DreamingaboutM said:

 I like the idea that it has recently been serviced so that if there are any issues I can attribute it to the lens

I have no idea about the service history of that particular camera; not what I wrote.  If there are issues found, then they will get it fixed before sale. One can trust, for instance, that any M9 based body has a new sensor, any used S lens has a new AF motor, etc.  Some items, if they need to be sent to Leica or DAG, will explicitly provide a separate warranty in addition to the store warranty. But each item requires research.

If you shop based on price (eBay private party), you miss not only store warranty and return policies, but you don’t build relationships that might serve you well down the road.  YMMV.

Jeff

Edited December 17, 2021 by Jeff S

[M Journey]

23 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

I have no idea about the service history of that particular camera; not what I wrote.  If there are issues found, then they will get it fixed before sale. One can trust, for instance, that any M9 based body has a new sensor, any used S lens has a new AF motor, etc.  Some items, if they need to be sent to Leica or DAG, will explicitly provide a separate warranty in addition to the store warranty. But each item requires research.

If you shop based on price (eBay private party), you miss not only store warranty and return policies, but you don’t build relationships that might serve you well down the road.  YMMV.

Jeff

 I meant that I could more confidently blame the lens if something was off (decentering, etc.) if the body had recently been serviced.  Watching the red dot forum videos, I seem to recall Josh emphasizing that they will service used items if they can't determine a recent service date.  

 

And @jaapv, I agree.  I rather pay a little more and have a warranty and ability to return if the product is defective or I am not happy with the product.

[Jeff S]

3 minutes ago, DreamingaboutM said:

 And @jaapv, I agree.  I rather pay a little more and have a warranty and ability to return if the product is defective or I am not happy with the product.

My point as well… twice.

Jeff

[jaapv]

Cannot be made often enough - too many horror stories out there  

[kinch123]

3 hours ago, UliWer said:

Well, an adapter which mimics an autofocus for an M-lens might be not the ideal way to approach an M-camera. There are also "normal" adapters for M-lenses to be used on a Nikon-Z:

https://www.novoflex.de/en/products-637/lens-adapters//adapterfinder-products/camera/nikon-z-mirrorless/objectiv/31.html

I use the Novoflex adapter and have gotten some very satisfying images with 35mm ASPH Lux on my Z7 (stock sensor).

Granted with the APO one is going to be more likely to be pixel peeping and picky about corners. Still, I think if I were OP, I'd stick to a good quality manual focus adapter for now and wait for the M11 next year. Patience is a virtue.

FWIW that's my strategy. I sold off the M240 earlier this year and am hanging onto my ME and Monochrom-M because original sensors (still OK) and therefore more or less unsaleable. Plus I still rather like the images they produce.

Of course if magenta is your favourite colour and you like taking photos of magenta things all day, then a 2nd hand M240 is a no brainer!

Edited December 17, 2021 by kinch123

[Jeff S]

38 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Cannot be made often enough - too many horror stories out there  

Indeed… for DreamingaboutM’s benefit, as a potential first significant Leica purchase. Better realized dreams than nightmares.

Jeff

[Photojournoguy]

Funny timing - I just bought a 35 APO thinking the waiting list would take a number of months. It’s my first Leica and I have no body. The difference is though I am going for the M10M and so the 11 is no threat to my BW focus.

Although I have no M experience, I have had to think of this scenario with the 35 APO. I’d work with an out of state top/reputable long-term dealer to avoid taxes, buy a used M10 from them, and then sell it back to them for as close to what you bought it for as possible, with the deal being you’d only buy the M11 from them, so they benefit from the profit of that large purchase. The only issue is you’d basically be restricting M11 access/purchase through one dealer to make good on returning the M10 as seamlessly as possible, but if you call around and see if a dealer (even midwestern states that don’t have the Miami clientele/competition) could assure you that you have an early/top spot for the M11 when it comes in, it might be worth it.

I just did my M10M/35 APO deal with a highly reputable owner/operator and almost 40 years as Leica dealer, I’d be happy to share their info by PM if interested as I was really taken care of nicely (above and beyond) and I wouldn’t be surprised if they would be open to such an arrangement.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Photojournoguy

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[otto.f]

8 hours ago, UliWer said:

Well, an adapter which mimics an autofocus for an M-lens might be not the ideal way to approach an M-camera. There are also "normal" adapters for M-lenses to be used on a Nikon-Z:

https://www.novoflex.de/en/products-637/lens-adapters//adapterfinder-products/camera/nikon-z-mirrorless/objectiv/31.html

From what I’ve seen, the Nikon Z is a good camera with very nice color management. So you’ll have the least loss if you just buy the adapter, it will be handy even when the M11 is out. Spend 150€ on the Novoflex and you’ll be able to consider if the M11 offers really more than a Nikon Z. In recent years I doubt whether it’s very smart to run for the latest M, just read the experiences here first.