Leica SL 21,.. plz

[Virob]

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3 hours ago, jplomley said:

My take-home lesson on this...never buy into a system based upon a promised road-map, especially from Leica. Won't get fooled again.

Before becoming a Leica user, I never looked at lens road maps. This is a whole new (learning) experience. I got the Sigma 20/2 last year and other than the vignetting, it is a fine lens. I should forget the APO and use my store deposit for something else. It is unfortunate, because of all the SL lenses available, announced or rumoured, it is the one that interests me the most. 

[Paul2660]

I have the Sigma 20mm Art 1.4 and have been very pleased with it.  In fact it's the first wide fast  prime I have used (Nikon, Canon 24mm 1.8 and 20mm 1.8, )that has an excellent coma correction.  I have also used this lens with multi shot work and it can produce very good images.  For the price it's an excellent companion to the SL2 and SL2-S.  I am sure the 21mm Summicron F 2 will be superior but at the massive price point difference, odds are I will stay with the Sigma. 

 

Paul 

[Virob]

58 minutes ago, Paul2660 said:

I have the Sigma 20mm Art 1.4 and have been very pleased with it.  In fact it's the first wide fast  prime I have used (Nikon, Canon 24mm 1.8 and 20mm 1.8, )that has an excellent coma correction.  I have also used this lens with multi shot work and it can produce very good images.  For the price it's an excellent companion to the SL2 and SL2-S.  I am sure the 21mm Summicron F 2 will be superior but at the massive price point difference, odds are I will stay with the Sigma. 

 

Paul 

I’ve considered the 20/1.4,  and if I was big on astro, I wouldn’t hesitate. But, I don’t need such a wide aperture along with increased filter size. Granted it would still weigh less than the 21 APO and is considerably less expensive. It is a good option.

Interestingly, that Leica rumour site is now suggesting a possible announcement for the 21 APO as early as next week.Their track record recently has been pretty good.

[BernardC]

14 hours ago, jplomley said:

My take-home lesson on this...never buy into a system based upon a promised road-map, especially from Leica. Won't get fooled again.

The Online Photographer had a post about that earlier this year. It wasn't about Leica at all. The logic applies to any system: don't base purchase decision on products that don't exist (or on rumours).

[Planetwide]

These production issues are not only related to Leica. Canon has been having issues too, as the RF 35mm F1.2 was promised almost 3 years ago, and has yet to materialize. I agree 5 years is getting a bit ridiculous. But it does appear that Leica is showing the L mount some Sigma love... 😒

[MediaFotografie]

...hmmm, so new M11 Monochrome and SLX-M 50mm - but no APO-SL 21mm? that's a little bit disappointing

[Olaf_ZG]

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8 hours ago, MediaFotografie said:

...hmmm, so new M11 Monochrome and SLX-M 50mm - but no APO-SL 21mm? that's a little bit disappointing

Indeed. Recently I bought an ef-l adapter and there are many great zeiss ef lenses available, for great prices.

If Leica doesn’t want our money, for sure someone else wants it 😎

[jplomley]

On 4/13/2023 at 9:20 AM, MediaFotografie said:

...hmmm, so new M11 Monochrome and SLX-M 50mm - but no APO-SL 21mm? that's a little bit disappointing

Honestly, an open letter needs to be written to Leica on this. The amount of M kit, lenses and bodies that have been released whilst we wait for the long ago promised 21/24 APO SC's is simply inexcusable. Many of us bought into this system based on the promise of delivering best in class APO SC's that cover WA, mid, and telephoto.  28 mm is not wide angle in my books! 

[Planetwide]

I find myself debating Leica these days... The introduction of rebadged existing Sigma & Panasonic lenses, along with the non existent SL primes has me questioning Leica's commitment to the L mount. The snail pace introduction of bodies and lenses has me thinking that I'll simply be too old by the time they get around to it.

I see Canon introducing lenses that I find are innovative, and well thought out. The 28-70mm is a superb lens, immensely useful. Add the 14-35mm and your covered, especially with this weeks 100-300mm F2.8 announcement. Add a 1.4x and its 140-420mm F5.6 of much better quality than the Leica 100-400mm. Yes its expensive, but I expected a Leica 100-400mm to be expensive and SUPERB. That said, I hate Canon's viewfinder's...

I had high hopes for the 21mm, but I am guessing it will be the fall, possibly along with the SL3 - if at all. The 24mm - nowhere land.

Sigma is doing the heavy lifting these days, and Panasonic seems to be sloooowly moving forward too. S lenses, non expected.

Thanks for reading. Post/flame away.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Planetwide

[jplomley]

13 minutes ago, Planetwide said:

I find myself debating Leica these days... The introduction of rebadged existing Sigma & Panasonic lenses, along with the non existent SL primes has me questioning Leica's commitment to the L mount. The snail pace introduction of bodies and lenses has me thinking that I'll simply be too old by the time they get around to it.

I see Canon introducing lenses that I find are innovative, and well thought out. The 28-70mm is a superb lens, immensely useful. Add the 14-35mm and your covered, especially with this weeks 100-300mm F2.8 announcement. Add a 1.4x and its 140-420mm F5.6 of much better quality than the Leica 100-400mm. Yes its expensive, but I expected a Leica 100-400mm to be expensive and SUPERB. That said, I hate Canon's viewfinder's...

I had high hopes for the 21mm, but I am guessing it will be the fall, possibly along with the SL3 - if at all. The 24mm - nowhere land.

Sigma is doing the heavy lifting these days, and Panasonic seems to be sloooowly moving forward too. S lenses, non expected.

Thanks for reading. Post/flame away.

Nothing to criticize and in full agreement. All of the L discounts over the past year also raises alarm bells about just how slow sales have been. Well no wonder, its not a well-rounded system despite its 2015 launch when they blazed the trail. No wide angle APO SC's, no Leica branded macro or Tilt-shift lenses for us landscape/architectural  photographers, no APO SC beyond 90mm (I would love a 135 or 180 APO SC with appropriate TC). I have this feeling Leica will drop the product line and just let Panasonic and Sigma continue while and they focus on the more profitable and desireable M and Q product lines, with a huge bet on an EVF-M camera being immensely successful as the M12. Or, the next S-MF will be mirrorless and the S lenses upgraded and the SL lenses being compatible with an adapter, albeit a smaller image circle. They just cannot compete in the FF 35mm space along the likes of Sony, Nikon and Canon. So might as well revamp the S!!!!!!

Edited April 27, 2023 by jplomley

[Stuart Richardson]

I agree with you all that it is frustrating that Leica has not released the 21mm and 24mm Summicrons, or even elmarits etc. I would be even more happy (maybe more so) with a 21mm 2.8 that was as sharp but half the size. Anyway, I am prone to pessimism and to a lesser extent with grievance. I try to mitigate them, as they ultimately don't do me much service. So while I am often the voice of doom, I am going to play the optimist here. With the SL system as it is now we have:

1. What appear to be the sharpest and most well corrected standard lenses ever sold for commercial cameras in the existing Leica APO Summicrons, AND the best standard zoom and what is also probably the best standard telephoto zoom in the 90-280mm. All of these lenses cost less than their equivalent M lenses (if there is one) and also outperform them.  

2. Two extraordinary camera bodies that between the two of them have the best in body stabilization in the industry, the best multishot in the industry and until very recently had the best viewfinders in the industry. They also have the best color in the industry and the best build quality in the industry and the best industrial design and menus in the industry. The bodies, while expensive, are also quite a bit less expensive than the M line. Meanwhile, they can shoot essentially every lens that Leica has ever produced, from screwmount to the S system with essentially full functionality.

3. When taken as a whole, they have the largest group of native lenses in the industry, given that Panasonic, Sigma and Leica all produce native lenses in L mount. They start with a 14mm 1.8 (!) and go to a 150-600mm. Leica themselves cover 16mm-400mm (or 280mm if you are a purist).

4. There are five 20-24mm prime lenses, from 1.4 to 3.5, and all of them that I have tried compare very well with anything from the R or M system. In my test I compared the Sigma 24mm 3.5 to the Leica 21mm 3.4 M and found the Sigma to be sharper in the corners and edges. It was 550 dollars vs 3500 for the M lens.

5. Again, in a comparison test I did I found that the Sigma 105mm 2.8 macro is as sharp and free of aberration as my 120mm APO Macro Summarit S. It is also much smaller, lighter, focuses to 1 to 1 instead of 1 to 2 and is literally 1/10th the price. I think one of the reasons we might not see some of these lenses is that Leica sees that it cannot really compete in these particular areas. Clearly the M and Q have recently been the areas where they have done the best. In the meantime, I am very grateful that we have the SL system and the stable of extremely good L mount lenses, both from Leica and their partners.

[Planetwide]

Thanks Guys. I am just frustrated with them. IMHO, the engineering and development of the Sigma/Pana clones was a waste of time and money. Sure they will sell a few, but they could have put the 21mm & 24mm into production. I buy Leica for absolute lens quality and innovation. The 16-35mm, 24-90mm and 90-280mm are brilliant lenses, back stop these withe some SL primes and its optically, and incomparable system.

I hope for a 28-75mm F2.0 and a 100-400mm F4-5.6 of Leica design. Where are any of the F2.8 zooms, F1.4 primes?

Instead, I now find myself hoping that Panasonic will introduce a S series 100-400mm. 

My Canon RF is doing a more and more of the hard work these days...Just saying' 

Edited April 27, 2023 by Planetwide

[Stuart Richardson]

1 hour ago, Planetwide said:

The 16-35mm, 24-90mm and 90-280mm are brilliant lenses, back stop these withe some SL primes and its optically, and incomparable system.

If you are covered from 16mm to 280mm and think the lenses are brilliant, what is it exactly that is driving you to the Canon? 
 

As for what Leica “should” be doing, I completely sympathize.  But it is good to remember that the company is a company, not a public service. The only people they are really accountable to are their owners. They clearly have increased prices way faster than inflation in the M series and still are making record profits, so presumably that is where they are going to focus their resources. There they have essentially zero competition so they can name their price, which they have clearly done. They have more price/feature competition in the EVF segment. I would be curious to see which cost more to make, the SL or M. Despite all the talk of mechanical and optical precision, I would not be surprised if the SL cost a similar amout to make. 

Edited April 27, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

[BernardC]

36 minutes ago, Planetwide said:

IMHO, the engineering and development of the Sigma/Pana clones was a waste of time and money. Sure they will sell a few, but they could have put the 21mm & 24mm into production.

I doubt that. It is more likely that the "clones" didn't impact other development work. I can't imagine that the 21 and 24 are ready to be released, but Leica decided to release other lenses instead.

As Stuart mentioned, the APO-Summicron-L's are the best standard lenses ever sold. That can't be an easy thing to do. I'm sure that Leica are even more frustrated than we are that the 21 and 24 are taking so long, but there's no point in releasing new APO-Summicrons that don't meet the high standards of existing APO-Summicrons. If they wanted to release something that's only slightly better than the competition, they could do that with tweaked Panasonic or Sigma designs. After all, those two companies are making lenses that are every bit as good as any Canon/Nikon/Sony design of comparable price.

On the plus side, you can get excellent 21s and 24s in L Mount right now. Leica covers those two focal lengths with class-leading zooms, and Pana and Sigma have several options, fixed and zoom, slow and fast, cheap and (relatively) expensive. You won't find better elsewhere.

 

 

[Simone_DF]

3 hours ago, Planetwide said:

Thanks Guys. I am just frustrated with them. IMHO, the engineering and development of the Sigma/Pana clones was a waste of time and money.

Unlikely. All they had to do was to grab the innards, rehouse them into a new metal sleeve, and paint a red dot on it. Most likely, development and engineering was close to zero.

[Planetwide]

I run the Canon system in conjunction with my Leica system. As I said, lenses like the 28-70mm F2.0 are immensely useful, and I will probably add the 100-300mm F2.8 at some point. Have you seen the size and weight of the RF 70-200mm F2.8, this is the kind of innovation that I think is needed.

What do we get from Leica, poor lenses that are rebadged. To me, this is counter to what "I believe" Leica should be. Of course, this is only my personal opinion for what it is worth. What I want from Leica are top quality zooms, specifically a 100-400mm that is of the same quality as the 90-280mm. How about a 70-200mm F2.8, maybe a 12-24mm F4, 28-75mm F2.0? How about a 35mm F1.4, 90mm F1.4?

I feel that Leica could have really made the SL system a standout. Innovation and desirable lenses sell, releasing more f2.0 rebadged lenses of the same focal length is the opposite IMHO. 

I just find that 5 years to wait for a couple of prime lenses is pretty bad... I sincerely doubt that Leica is frustrated by the delay, it is entirely within their control. The lack of communication, and re-prioritizing lower end production makes me think that the SL mount is not a priority in any way - hence the second guessing my commitment. 

Anyway, thanks for reading, lets get back to the 21mm... Hopefully, I am wrong, and they get announced!

[MediaFotografie]

Friends, Thursday, day of announcements in Wetzlar - and we get - yes, a Leica watch in monochrome (no joke), and so no APO-SC 21mm in April...

 

https://leica-camera.com/de-DE/World-of-Leica/Leica-Watch

[Essummi]

This is what photo enthusiasts have been waiting for. The comparison of the prices of the 35mm steel rim reissue and the 35mm Apo SL and the respective technical complexity might give one possible answer to the delay....

 

[Donald M]

I am not a technician, far from it, but couldn't it be difficult for Leica to wedge an Apo 21mm F2 into the barrel with a form factor of the other SL prime lenses? 

The main problem of Leica is not their lens or camera building skills, but their communication. Why not just tell what is going on? Where are you working on, what is the time frame, etc. By not doing so, people tend to get frustrated, cynical or walk away. They also might if they know what is happening, but then you make the choice: Am I one of the those who wants a new 'better' camera every 1-2 years or switch brands every so often or am I waiting for technically and visually the best lenses and cameras. 

Everybody can see Leica is selling off their stock of SL2 and SL-S cameras by making them more attractive by pairing them with relative cheap lenses. Apparently Leica does not want to give straight rebates on their cameras like Sony, Panasonic, etc.

The charm of the l-mount alliance is that there is always an alternative lens, maybe not with Leica quality, but the prices are much more attractive, so if Leica in the end comes with your dream lens it didn't cost you an arm and a leg and you can go out and take pictures the way you imagined before Leica releases this dream lens. 

I am certain Leica can technically compete with the big boys, but they cannot by releasing a camera every 1-2 years. Who is asking for that, other then the photo sites who make money by the number of clicks on their sites and have to present the newest best. So only once in every 4-5 years Leica belongs to the best.

Read for example Reidreviews: they say that even today a Leica SL (601) from 2015 is still a very good value proposition. My frustration is that with every new camera, Leica tends to forget their customers of the older cameras. No new software updates anymore. Where with mechanical cameras Leica has stock of supplies of over 20 or 30 years, now a modern camera (Sl or M) is forgotten after 4-5 years. The mechanical parts are probably still there, but Leica 'forget' the other important part: the software. 

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Hallo,

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[Simone_DF]

9 hours ago, Donald M said:

Everybody can see Leica is selling off their stock of SL2 and SL-S cameras by making them more attractive by pairing them with relative cheap lenses. Apparently Leica does not want to give straight rebates on their cameras like Sony, Panasonic, etc.

But they do! 

https://cloud.mail.leica-camera.com/familyandfriends_termsandconditions?Language=en

"If you own one of the  Leica products listed below or you have been invited to the Leica Family & Friends Promotion running from 18th of July to 31st of October 2022, you can receive an instant rebate for the Leica SL system products listed below."

Not to mention the free M-L adapter that was thrown in on top of the rebadged 24-70 bundle, which was already sold at a discount, not too long ago.