Printing / Post processing issues

[multimixer]

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Hello to all

It's my first post here, beside some image posts in photo threads. 

I'm new to digital photography, I got a M9 + a summicron 50mm a couple of weeks ago and I'm very happy with it. One of the reasons for going with the "old" M9 is this forum here that I'm following since a while. Taking pictures is the way I found to get out of the house and away from the computer screen where I sit most of the day

I'm still trying to find my way around post processing, I'm using capture one. I'm trying out presets, settings, dragging sliders etc etc, probably overdoing it a lot.

Recently I decided to make a test print for some of my images, and results were not what I expected, so I decided to post here in the hope to get some help. Here is what I noticed, and I apologise for my ignorance in advance:

1) Colours are a bit off and "dull" in the prints, but this may be because my monitor is not calibrated, it's an older Mac book pro. I sort of "calibrated" my monitor by placing the print beside the monitor trying to match what I see on the print with what I see on the monitor. I don't know if this makes any sense ? Would it help if I stick with a default icc profile and tell the lab what I'm using ? Or the opposite, get the icc profile the lab is using ?

2) The prints appear like "zoomed in" in relation to the original images. Even I cropped and exported the images in exact 3:2 ratio and the prints are 10x15cm, there is still a part of the image "cuts off". Do I need to account for a additional cropping and leave some extra space when cropping for printing ?

3) The worse: There is a blue / cyan colour around the edges of details making the print unusable. This blue edges are not visible on the monitor, only on the prints. I noticed that it happens on high contrast / small detail areas and I suspect that it has something to to with the sharpening / clarity settings. Here I did something wrong for sure, but the big question is, how to know that something is wrong if I don't see any sign on the monitor ?

I'll post 2 examples in following posts

I'll be really grateful for any help, advice or tip. What am I doing wrong ? Is the printing shop doing anything wrong as well ?

Thank you very much

 

 

 

[multimixer]

Example 1

The file I sent

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The print (scanned with a common document scanner, so It appear even worse overall, but you can see the blue edges)

[multimixer]

Since I suspect that the issue is related to sharpening / clarity, here are my settings 

Clarity

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The "default" capture one sharpening (that I didn't know is happening)

The export sharpening

 

[multimixer]

Example 2

The file I sent for printing

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The print I got

 

The blue / cyan edges around the small details are obvious

[multimixer]

My sharpening related settings

Clarity

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The "default" capture one sharpening

Sharpening added by a preset that I used (didn't noticed that this actually happen)

Sharpening added by another preset on top

And the export sharpening

Here is obviously too much sharpening going on, most of it I wasn't even aware of.

 

 

[multimixer]

I hope I made my point clear. Almost all images have hat problem to a degree, sometimes only in very details, like eyelashes

I can't be sure that the problem is clarity / sharpening, but I suspect so because the blue edges appear in areas where I added clarity. Other point I noticed is it appear on edges and mostly in small detail areas. Are other parameters playing a role too ?

I also don't understand why that edges appear blue, even in a B&W image ?

The problem is for that I couldn't see anything on the screen that would alarm me that something is wrong. Or is it my untrained eye ?

I'll be grateful if someone is going to spend hist time and explain to me what the problem is and how to avoid. Should I let the printing store correct my foots before printing ? I would prefer to get things right my self.

Thank you for your attention

[SrMi]

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What kind of printer are you using? I print on my Epson via Epson Print Layout software. It is very simple and works quite well.

[multimixer]

Thank you for your reply.

I'm not using my own printer, I sent the files to a photo-lab that also prints digital files, I have no idea what printer they use. It was all about making a test in small size, just to get an idea how things look like. 

I didn't thought about getting my own printer, in the believe that the photo shop will have a better one anyway than what I would buy.

My point is, why my files get this cyan edges. Do you believe it is printer related or is the fault in my settings ?

[zeitz]

You really need to describe your whole setup.  What computer, what OS, how you are calibrating your monitor.  And what color space you are using (should not be PhotoPro).  And what file format.

When I got my M9, the colors were unusable, especially reds.  If I had not created my own custom profile with a Monaco color checker, a would have sent the camera back.  The printer you used probably has a color managed process.  You also need to have a color managed process.

[Gerbs]

I am certainly no expert, but I have a couple of observations. The lab you sent to doesn't actually print black and white prints, they imitate them on a color printer, so no matter how good the file you send it will not be of the highest quality, with that lab, for black and white prints. They should be using a printer with a bunch of shades of gray in their ink cartridges, to create gorgeous and accurate black and white prints.

When I look at the B&W image you sent, it looks like all the tree leaves are surrounded by a white halo. Too me, to my eye, it looks like waaaay too much sharpening and contrast and/or clarity. If you are sending JPEG files to the lab, it just asks for further trouble, as JPEG artifacts are particularly noticed around the edges of things. If you ARE using JPEGs in Capture One, set the file to be the highest quality you can... the amount of compression to the minimum should equal the fewest problems with that file type.

Capture One can render (make a flie) according to various profiles, ask the lab what you should use.

Without a monitor that can be calibrated, it may be trial and error to find what works with what you see on screen and what you get back from the lab. Photos cannot have the range of tone that a monitor has, because they are reflected light whereas the monitor uses light itself, so prints will look different. Not worse, just different.

I believe you are seeing artifacts of the whole process: your sharpening, your file type, the print software at the lab (they should have settings they can change to match what you are sending, unless the "lab" is just a drug store photo print service, in which case it is all automated, I would guess). You could efficiently run a test by combining a number of samples into one file, cropping and pasting together, and send that to your service. That way it just costs 1 print. Also, find out if they accept TIFF files.

[multimixer]

@zeitz

My setup, well

- mac book pro, 2012 using catalina 10.15

- Capture one 22

- Monitor not calibrated, at that time it was set to adobe rgb 1998 profile, now I made my own to match (about) what I'm seeing on the printer foot. In capture one the ICC is set to "Leica M9 generic". I'm not sure if this answers your question about colour space. 

- The files sent were .jpg resized by capture one (export recipe) to 10x15

Thank you for your reply, I'll check what a "monaco colour checker" is

Edited December 12, 2021 by multimixer

[multimixer]

@Gerbs

I tend to agree that the lab is using a colour printer. I had a similar case, when I sent a BW film for developing and print (via scan just for preview) and I had exactly the same issue with the cyan edges. After complaining, they re-printed the images and all ok, but I didn't't bother to ask what the case was. But I really wondered at that time, how a BW film can have cyan edges. Welcome to the digital age.

I agree that the BW file I sent is over sharpened and I can see the halos myself, now that I know what to look for. But still, when is it to much and when is it still ok ? How much of a hallo is still acceptable? I wouldn't mind that much if the hallo were white, like on the file. This leads me to the thought that there is a double mistake: Too much sharpening from my side, that causes hallo, and a wrong printer setup that causes the hallo to be blue ?

The lab is cooperative, but they said that they don't know about capture one. They offered to correct my files themselves, but the point for me is to get things right on my own. It is not a big drugstore, its a shop that used to be a real photo lab, but know, because of the various circumstances, they probably use some automated process.

The files I sent are jpegs in highest quality, but reduced in size to match the 10x15 print size. Do you think its better to send them .tiff ?

The calibrated monitor, yes, of course, I probably will get one. But the would only affect the colour accuracy that I'm not so much worrying about at this stage. Would such a calibrated monitor also account for the "dullness" on the prints in relation to the "liveness" of what I see on the screen ? In any case, my first concern is to master that artefacts

I now plan to take 1 image, process it in different ways, now that I know also different file types (jpg and tiff) and see the results, I'll post them here

Thank you for your reply

Edited December 12, 2021 by multimixer

[Stuart Richardson]

It looks like the lab to me. Are there any professional printing services there? I have some art photographer friends in Athens who might know, if you would like me to ask them. The appearance of the scanned print suggests to me that it is not worth trying to get them to "figure it out", as it is so far removed from what a decent print should look like. The blue/cyan around the edges suggest to me that there is so lack of alignment or registration in whatever printing method they are using. It does not look like inkjet...more like something that would happen in a dye sublimation machine or digital c print machine. Though they may be nice people and a former photo shop, I would suggest figuring out where local exhibitions are mostly made...where do museums and galleries go to print their work? That is the place to go. It will probably not be much more expensive, but it will surely be better.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Stuart Richardson

[marchyman]

The images where you say you are showing "default" capture one sharpening are not showing what you think.  Capture One shows ALL adjustments regardless of which layer is selected.   When you selecting a layer and adjust sharpness you will see that adjusted sharpness even when selecting the base layer.   Capture One does not, for the most part, stack changes on top of each other where layer n depends upon layer n-1.  Layers can be moved around without changing the image.  A possible exception to that is healing layers should be first or you may run into issues.

If you want to see what the image looks like without your sharpening layer use before/after or, if you want to see the difference a layer makes check/uncheck the layer.  In addition to the export sharpening there is the sharpening tool that is part of the details tab.  That's where you can adjust either whole image or individual sharpening.   My Q, for example, gets a value of 180 with a radius of 0.8 applied to all images by Capture One unless I adjust it otherwise.  Note that those values are "before" values.  If you want to see what the image would look like without any sharpening you need to select the Background layer and drag the sharpening slider to zero.

Capture One Q default sharpening of 180

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Capture One Q with sharpening set to 0

 

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by marchyman

[Gerbs]

8 hours ago, multimixer said:

@Gerbs

How much of a hallo is still acceptable?

The files I sent are jpegs in highest quality, but reduced in size to match the 10x15 print size. Do you think its better to send them .tiff ?
Would such a calibrated monitor also account for the "dullness" on the prints in relation to the "liveness" of what I see on the screen ? In any case, my first concern is to master that artefacts

This is just my personal goals, but I feel that any processing that is obvious is too much. Too much contrast, too much sharpening. That doesn't mean that there can't be great amounts of processing, but for me I don't want it to be obvious, I want my photos to look possible in nature, as if they came directly from the camera.

As far as TIFFs, they are a lossless file format, so they are best, IF the lab can take them in and use them without conversion to something else. When I print using Capture One files, I don't reduce the size if you mean resample the image down, I increase the pixels per inch so that the print size is what I want.  The printer has very high resolution, and the QuadToneRIP that processes my files and drives the printer will consume as many pixels as I can feed it, so to speak.

One of the things that may have happened with the halos turning blue is that they aren't white, but rather light gray. My guess is that light cyan is considered by the printer (the machine) as the closest thing it has to offer for light gray. If the lab used a printer without color, the halos would have been an odd-looking monotone, but better than blue!

[multimixer]

@marchymanthank you for your reply.

I'm aware that I always see the total sharpening (and other adjustments) regardless the selected layer. Even the export sharpening is included in the preview, depending on the export recipe selected.

I posted the various capture one screenshots in order to show the settings used for each image, I'm not clear if this type of settings are considered as normal or "too much" already. It always depend on the specific image of course

Fact is, that I wasn't aware that Capture ione is applying some initial sharpening to the background layer, nor that various presets are doing that. 

I think it is a better practice to remove all sharpening applied by various sources and add my own on a separate layer hat I can better control

[multimixer]

@Stuart RichardsonI don't know what printer or printing technique they used, I asked them today and will post the information.

I had the same issue with another photo shop/lab, with that cyan edges on B&W film !!!. I really wondered how B&W film (I think it was ilford HP5) can get cyan edges. That lab reprinted the images, but they were still so far from what I was used to see in the old times. It was my first roll of film on that camera after maybe 25 years and I was used to get nice images, maybe not super wow, but ok for me, and for sure without any artefacts etc.

So I decided to get a digital camera, realising that my film is getting digitalised before printing, so why not take the image digital right away ? I bought the M9 and I'm exactly at the same point.

I'll follow your advice and search for professional printing services, I stubbed upon one in my "excursions" that I even photographed, but then forgot about: 

 

What should I look for when asking for the printing details? Should it be a inkjet printer and in case of B&W only using Black/grey ink ?

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by multimixer
typo

[multimixer]

@Gerbs Thank you for the useful tips

I agree that the files are over processed. The files posted here are maybe the most processed, I'm still experimenting with everything, I need to find the balance that is right for me on various levels. This here was my first attempt to print some images in small size, just to see how they look like.

I can see that artists even on images that are almost out of the camera, beside the sharpening applied by capture one (in 2 stages, default and export) and maybe some exposure correction + turning to B&W. They are also in colour images, just harder to see on the small prints.

So yes, one more point to make clear with the lab is if they accept tiff files that they print without concerting to jpeg first.

What I find very interesting is the tip about increasing the pixels per inch instead of downsizing the image, I will try that 

[LocalHero1953]

In your shoes I would buy a good printer and learn how to do it myself. In fact that's what I did do, when I bought a (new) M9 in 2011. When you don't know what printing machine the company is using, what ICC profiles they are using etc, you are just adding communication difficulties and misunderstandings to a process that should be under your full control. I occasionally send images for printing at larger size than my printer can handle, or on, say, canvas, but then they go to one of the remote professional printers in the UK. 

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[multimixer]

@LocalHero1953 Well, thats also a thought. My fear here is, that the printer I could afford will produce worse prints than a photo lab that is using a professional printer. After seeing what I got, I'm not so sure anymore, so I'll maybe start looking for a printer as well.

I want first to narrow down the reasons that caused the results, basically answering the question if the problem is my post processing or the printing way (printer, technique whatever).

Am I right in my assumption, that a M9 SOOC B&W image, with all jpeg settings in camera set to "standard" should print ok, meaning without any artefacts, false colours etc ?

Edit: Some very nice photos on your website

Edited December 14, 2021 by multimixer
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