Leica IIIf end of production (Canada?)

[tranquilo67]

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Hi all,

As William has said several times, I really like (and enjoy) last units of every model and the mystery that in many cases surround them.

So that said, and due to I had no IIIf RD ST, I found an "interesting" one with serial 829807. Given it was in the UK, the camera will take several weeks to arrive due to Brexit (and the workaround used for it based on brother in law  ), so the picture is from the seller.

The serial number is in one of the two last small batches of 100 units, at least from the serial number perspective: 829751 to 829850 and 837621 to 837720. The interesting part about those is:

• Those two batches don't appear at all in Hahne list (at least I haven't seen them neither in the IIIc nor in any other camera).
• Those two batches are marked in the wiki as 1956 but no ELC.
• In some other sources (like Stephen Gandy https://www.cameraquest.com/ltmnum.htm ) they're marked as 1956 ELC.
• Pp Ghisetti mentions "Note that Canadian production continued after the cessation of sa Wetzlar production, with two batches of 100 pieces each". But interesting enough, he also says "Introduced in 1954 until 1957 (last number 825000), for 59.000 pieces produced". So will that place those two batches in 1957?. (Page translated to english ).

I will not mention other sources that even when serious enough, they're even more messy.

So, at this point, everything is really unclear with those quite "obscure" batches. It's unclear if those two batches were the last, if they were built/assembled in Midland, if the production of even if the IIIf lasted till 1956 or 1957.

So any information, idea or comment will be completely welcome (as always). Two last comments: the camera seems to have Weston units in the ASA dial reminder (that would support the ELC origin) and of course, I will ask Leica for eventual information about it. If it's Canadian, I'm not sure if they will have anything but even that lack of information, in this case, could support the ELC assembly.

Sorry for the long post and best wishes,

Augusto

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Edited November 30, 2021 by tranquilo67

[luigi bertolotti]

Super interesting find 😎. I leave ponderings about to real experts: my rough idea : assembled in Canada - tops from Wetzlar (spares ? leftovers ?) The indication fo 2 last batches of 100 is reported also here, for what is worth : https://www.cameraquest.com/ltmnum.htm

Can you post some other detail, like bottom, also with cover removed ?

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by luigi bertolotti

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[tranquilo67]

59 minutes ago, luigi bertolotti said:

Super interesting find 😎. I leave ponderings about to real experts: my rough idea : assembled in Canada - tops from Wetzlar (spares ? leftovers ?) The indication fo 2 last batches of 100 is reported also here, for what is worth : https://www.cameraquest.com/ltmnum.htm

Can you post some other detail, like bottom, also with cover removed ?

 

Thank you Luigi!! That's what I thought.

I will post more picture when I will receive it (by Christmas that is when my brother in law comes to Spain).

I've forgotten to mention that I've only located another 2 samples of those batches. One side reference to the serial 829786 from the same batch, and the 837664, that has engraved "Midland" in Jim Lager's illustrated history (Vol. I, page 69), and yes, I've checked one by one the 200 serial numbers

Best wishes,

Augusto

Edited November 30, 2021 by tranquilo67

[pippy]

G. Rogliatti also lists those two batches as being "IIIf ELC" and dates them to 1956. There were no more IIIf bodies listed by him.

FWIW he also lists one later batch of If cameras from '56 serial #s 850910 - 851000 and those are the very last of the 'f' variants listed.

Philip.

[tranquilo67]

49 minutes ago, pippy said:

G. Rogliatti also lists those two batches as being "IIIf ELC" and dates them to 1956. There were no more IIIf bodies listed by him.

FWIW he also lists one later batch of If cameras from '56 serial #s 850910 - 851000 and those are the very last of the 'f' variants listed.

Philip.

Thank you very much!! That supports the ELC origin.

It's also interesting that they appear as the latest batches when in some very serious references, the end of production is marked in 1957.

Best wishes,

Augusto

[luigi bertolotti]

OOT... have just seen a "fine numbered" IIIG  😎 https://www.foto-fina-shop.de/en/camera-and-optics/leica-leitz/m39-ltm/4670/leica-leitz-wetzlar-germany-iiig-body-m39-m-39-ltm-no.-890000-year-1957?gclid=Cj0KCQiAtJeNBhCVARIsANJUJ2H5TjF4TMOKhpH9fV2M5NXCxufueJGww69nizud9CK37lePRm3ALJAaArnjEALw_wcB

[willeica]

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4 hours ago, tranquilo67 said:

Hi all,

As William has said several times, I really like (and enjoy) last units of every model and the mystery that in many cases surround them.

So that said, and due to I had no IIIf RD ST, I found an "interesting" one with serial 829807. Given it was in the UK, the camera will take several weeks to arrive due to Brexit (and the workaround used for it based on brother in law  ), so the picture is from the seller.

The serial number is in one of the two last small batches of 100 units, at least from the serial number perspective: 829751 to 829850 and 837621 to 837720. The interesting part about those is:

• Those two batches don't appear at all in Hahne list (at least I haven't seen them neither in the IIIc nor in any other camera).
• Those two batches are marked in the wiki as 1956 but no ELC.
• In some other sources (like Stephen Gandy https://www.cameraquest.com/ltmnum.htm ) they're marked as 1956 ELC.
• Pp Ghisetti mentions "Note that Canadian production continued after the cessation of sa Wetzlar production, with two batches of 100 pieces each". But interesting enough, he also says "Introduced in 1954 until 1957 (last number 825000), for 59.000 pieces produced". So will that place those two batches in 1957?. (Page translated to english ).

I will not mention other sources that even when serious enough, they're even more messy.

So, at this point, everything is really unclear with those quite "obscure" batches. It's unclear if those two batches were the last, if they were built/assembled in Midland, if the production of even if the IIIf lasted till 1956 or 1957.

So any information, idea or comment will be completely welcome (as always). Two last comments: the camera seems to have Weston units in the ASA dial reminder (that would support the ELC origin) and of course, I will ask Leica for eventual information about it. If it's Canadian, I'm not sure if they will have anything but even that lack of information, in this case, could support the ELC assembly.

Sorry for the long post and best wishes,

Augusto

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Augusto, this seems to be a very late f camera, from the second last batch of IIIfs and the third last batch of fs, the last being If SN 851000, according to Jim Lager. Jim records the last IIIf as SN 837720. He shows 837664 which, as you say, is marked Midland Ontario. He also shows 823862 with Midland Ontario marked on it. In his text he says ' Small batches of the IIIf were prepared by Leitz Canada with engraved with the name of the Canadian manufacturer. Cameras with and without self-timer exist'. 

Just a few thoughts occur. Have you checked with Wetzlar about SN 829807 and asked if the camera was issued from Wetzlar or Midland'. I know that the commonly used lists say ELC for the band to which this camera came from, but Jim implies that the Canadian cameras were engraved 'Midland Ontario'. However, I believe that I have seen Canadian made cameras with 'Wetzlar' engraved or stamped on them. Somebody please correct me about this if I am wrong. The other thing to do would be to contact Jim about this. He may have more to add about this and Canadian made items generally.

Nice find, though, Augusto. Have I shown you a photo of my recently acquired post-war IIIa which has SN 3569xx as against a final IIIa SN of 357200 given by Jim Lager? I might be catching your enthusiasm for late models.

William 

 

[tranquilo67]

15 hours ago, willeica said:

Augusto, this seems to be a very late f camera, from the second last batch of IIIfs and the third last batch of fs, the last being If SN 851000, according to Jim Lager. Jim records the last IIIf as SN 837720. He shows 837664 which, as you say, is marked Midland Ontario. He also shows 823862 with Midland Ontario marked on it. In his text he says ' Small batches of the IIIf were prepared by Leitz Canada with engraved with the name of the Canadian manufacturer. Cameras with and without self-timer exist'. 

Just a few thoughts occur. Have you checked with Wetzlar about SN 829807 and asked if the camera was issued from Wetzlar or Midland'. I know that the commonly used lists say ELC for the band to which this camera came from, but Jim implies that the Canadian cameras were engraved 'Midland Ontario'. However, I believe that I have seen Canadian made cameras with 'Wetzlar' engraved or stamped on them. Somebody please correct me about this if I am wrong. The other thing to do would be to contact Jim about this. He may have more to add about this and Canadian made items generally.

Nice find, though, Augusto. Have I shown you a photo of my recently acquired post-war IIIa which has SN 3569xx as against a final IIIa SN of 357200 given by Jim Lager? I might be catching your enthusiasm for late models.

William 

 

Hi William!!

I have still pending the serial number check with Leica archives. I wanted to wait till I'll have the camera in my hands, but may be I'll contact them earlier.

In parallel, I've got confirmation by another very trusted source (Fabrizio Pangrazi) that yes, both small batches are from ELC, and even when the last could be engraved "Midland", the one my camera belongs to, is engraved "Wetzlar". I would have loved to have one from the last batch but I haven't seen any, and if they're all engraved with Midland, they will command a more than interesting price.

Anyway this one seems a nice "tail" for my 610205, that it's also ELC but also engraved "Wetzlar".

Regarding your really late IIIa, I haven't seen it yet. I can remember in the thread of my 357220 that someone (Alan?) mentioned that batch could have even gone shorter than the 357200. A really interesting camera indeed!! Looking forward seeing some pictures of it . I don't know why but, I have a kind of special affection to the IIIa model. The fact of being produced before, during and after the war, the mystery with black ones, the Sarre samples, the red curtain samples, and of course, my 1965 sample makes from it an interesting model (at least to my eyes) despite its large production volume.

And about the taste for the end of productions ... some time ago I read that the collectors like "the firsts, the lasts and the rare ones" and, at least from my own experience, I cannot agree more 😄😄

Best wishes,

Augusto

[tranquilo67]

16 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

OOT... have just seen a "fine numbered" IIIG  😎 https://www.foto-fina-shop.de/en/camera-and-optics/leica-leitz/m39-ltm/4670/leica-leitz-wetzlar-germany-iiig-body-m39-m-39-ltm-no.-890000-year-1957?gclid=Cj0KCQiAtJeNBhCVARIsANJUJ2H5TjF4TMOKhpH9fV2M5NXCxufueJGww69nizud9CK37lePRm3ALJAaArnjEALw_wcB

Come on Luigi!! That's a really nice number but I'm just a modest collector. How @willeica defined it? A collector with "interest much bigger than his wallet" (or something like that 😄😄).

Best wishes,

Augusto

[willeica]

1 hour ago, tranquilo67 said:

Hi William!!

I have still pending the serial number check with Leica archives. I wanted to wait till I'll have the camera in my hands, but may be I'll contact them earlier.

In parallel, I've got confirmation by another very trusted source (Fabrizio Pangrazi) that yes, both small batches are from ELC, and even when the last could be engraved "Midland", the one my camera belongs to, is engraved "Wetzlar". I would have loved to have one from the last batch but I haven't seen any, and if they're all engraved with Midland, they will command a more than interesting price.

Anyway this one seems a nice "tail" for my 610205, that it's also ELC but also engraved "Wetzlar".

Regarding your really late IIIa, I haven't seen it yet. I can remember in the thread of my 357220 that someone (Alan?) mentioned that batch could have even gone shorter than the 357200. A really interesting camera indeed!! Looking forward seeing some pictures of it . I don't know why but, I have a kind of special affection to the IIIa model. The fact of being produced before, during and after the war, the mystery with black ones, the Sarre samples, the red curtain samples, and of course, my 1965 sample makes from it an interesting model (at least to my eyes) despite its large production volume.

And about the taste for the end of productions ... some time ago I read that the collectors like "the firsts, the lasts and the rare ones" and, at least from my own experience, I cannot agree more 😄😄

Best wishes,

Augusto

Let me know when you get that info from Wetzlar about this camera. I have been meaning to ask Jim Lager for some time about where the records are for the North American items, such as Leitz New York and Midland Ontario. I have a few New York and Canadian items, but they are either accessories with no serial numbers or are cameras and lenses from much later periods. As you say, this has been a 'pending' item for me for some time. 

I will email you about my recent late IIIa acquisition as I might be accused of going 'off topic' on this thread.

William 

[tranquilo67]

36 minutes ago, willeica said:

Let me know when you get that info from Wetzlar about this camera. I have been meaning to ask Jim Lager for some time about where the records are for the North American items, such as Leitz New York and Midland Ontario. I have a few New York and Canadian items, but they are either accessories with no serial numbers or are cameras and lenses from much later periods. As you say, this has been a 'pending' item for me for some time. 

I will email you about my recent late IIIa acquisition as I might be accused of going 'off topic' on this thread.

William 

Perfect!! Even when, as you have said in several cases: there's an important tradition in this forum to go off-topic (and I love traditions)

Fabrizio has a lot of information about ELC production (AFAIK he has been researching that matter for 25 years).

Best wishes,

Augusto

[tranquilo67]

Happy new year to all!!

As committed, I got the information from Leica saying that there's "no entry in the delivery books and the production year is 1956 ELC".

Unfortunately (but as expected because of Canada production), there is no delivery information.

On top of the above, a friend brought my attention to the fact of the few samples that have surfaced from those two "posthumous" batches. On the other hand we're talking about 200 units versus the 184.000+ units of IIIf (0.1%) or even the 59.000 units total production of IIIf RDST (3.3%). I've checked with Fabrizio Pangrazi (who I consider one of the most knowledgeable guys in ELC cameras) and he's only aware of another sample, also in the second last batch.

BTW, the production total figure is wrong in the Leica Wiki but I don't know how to report it.

As William has stated several times, I'm a bit mad about last units of every model (and he's absolutely right!! 🙂) but some time ago I read that "collection is about the firsts, the lasts and the rare samples".

Best wishes,

Augusto

PS: And another picture of it, now that it's already at home and yes, the scale is in Weston/ASA 🙂

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[willeica]

10 hours ago, tranquilo67 said:

Happy new year to all!!

As committed, I got the information from Leica saying that there's "no entry in the delivery books and the production year is 1956 ELC".

Unfortunately (but as expected because of Canada production), there is no delivery information.

On top of the above, a friend brought my attention to the fact of the few samples that have surfaced from those two "posthumous" batches. On the other hand we're talking about 200 units versus the 184.000+ units of IIIf (0.1%) or even the 59.000 units total production of IIIf RDST (3.3%). I've checked with Fabrizio Pangrazi (who I consider one of the most knowledgeable guys in ELC cameras) and he's only aware of another sample, also in the second last batch.

BTW, the production total figure is wrong in the Leica Wiki but I don't know how to report it.

As William has stated several times, I'm a bit mad about last units of every model (and he's absolutely right!! 🙂) but some time ago I read that "collection is about the firsts, the lasts and the rare samples".

Best wishes,

Augusto

PS: And another picture of it, now that it's already at home and yes, the scale is in Weston/ASA 🙂

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Augusto, the Blue Book shows that there was a batch of IIIfs from ELC in 1956 from 829751 to 829850 and your camera fits in there. However, the book also shows a later batch from ELC with the range 837621 to 837720. The book also states that 1133 IIIfs were made in 1957 (location not identified), but I cannot find them in the serial number lists for 1957.

William 

[tranquilo67]

On 1/14/2022 at 10:54 PM, willeica said:

Augusto, the Blue Book shows that there was a batch of IIIfs from ELC in 1956 from 829751 to 829850 and your camera fits in there. However, the book also shows a later batch from ELC with the range 837621 to 837720. The book also states that 1133 IIIfs were made in 1957 (location not identified), but I cannot find them in the serial number lists for 1957.

William 

Hi William!!

Yes, there are two batches from Canada as you mentioned with 100 of units each. Mine is in second last batch.

And yes, in several sources, the end of production is dated in 1957 but interesting enough, I haven't seen a clear reference supporting that 1957. The two ELC batches are quite later (at least in terms of serial numbers) than the Wetzlar (production in Wetzlar ends in the serial 825.000). My only guess is that the last batches of Wetzlar (quite large) were stocked and sold/delivered during 1956 and 1957.

Of course, the ELC batches serial number could have been allocated in advance (before the end of production in Wetzlar), but it seem quite strange specially if we consider the few units on each as well as the strange starting numbers for those batches (not a factor of 1000 or even a factor of 500 or 100).

Best wishes,

Augusto