Stefan Daniels' SL2 Video

[hansvons]

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After all, the SL system is a Leica - and not a technology monster. 

I bought into that system for three reasons: colour, sturdiness and optics. I did not buy into the SL because I'm a sports journalist shooting fast-paced subjects. I that was my business, I'd buy a Canon as any other professional sports photographer would do. But I expect the SL2-S to work flawlessly for my reportage-like work, which includes environmental portraits and landscapes, delivering convincing results that justify the premium costs. And Leica delivers.

With the SL2-S, my conversion rate from pulling the trigger to a great photo is never determined by focus. There are many things in the way stopping me from shooting a good picture, but it's not the camera's technology. On the contrary, face recognition and regular point and re-frame works as good as I needed them to be. Sensitivity is close to sensational.

Will the SL3 be a different camera then? I bet. It will have an excellent AF and an articulated screen, while maintaining all the other virtues. Will it become the rich man's sports camera? No. That will be forever Canon's market. And the misunderstanding of what the SL system is, and what not, will continue forever  

 

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[LBJ2]

19 minutes ago, Michael Markey said:

Shot the same stuff with my M3 dw and M2 for over twenty years .... no problem but AF widens your scope and presents you with different opportunities.

That aside I`m going back to manual focusing with the SL2S .... my point is I shouldn`t have to when they are perfectly competent AF systems on the market which I wrongly thought would be spec`d in .

You yourself have the Sony AI presumably to do the stuff the SL can`t and I`m going to have to do something similar .

Back to the point .... all I`m saying is Panasonic should have spec`d it better then it would have been more competitive.

I didn`t intend to turn it into a contest as to who can focus better with a rangefinder .... we can all do that .

I certainly can ... and did

For those of us that use these cameras, PDAF has evolved to an almost magical level of AF capabilitities. Panasonic's DFD/CDAF has not in comparison in 2021. Many of us wonder why Panasonic hasn't converted or incorporated some type of PDAF, but at the same time and in my own experience I was surprised at what I could do and push the SL2's DFD to do based upon the complaints and I do very specifically mean tracking movement. 

I agree. I don't think any of us should pay for an expensive AF system that can't be used to auto focus. FWIW, I do not feel there is an AF contest going on in this discussion. I do however legitimately wonder why some are having issues focusing even on slow to medium movement with this system. 

[Michael Markey]

28 minutes ago, hansvons said:

After all, the SL system is a Leica - and not a technology monster. 

I bought into that system for three reasons: colour, sturdiness and optics. I did not buy into the SL because I'm a sports journalist shooting fast-paced subjects. I that was my business, I'd buy a Canon as any other professional sports photographer would do. But I expect the SL2-S to work flawlessly for my reportage-like work, which includes environmental portraits and landscapes, delivering convincing results that justify the premium costs. And Leica delivers.

With the SL2-S, my conversion rate from pulling the trigger to a great photo is never determined by focus. There are many things in the way stopping me from shooting a good picture, but it's not the camera's technology. On the contrary, face recognition and regular point and re-frame works as good as I needed them to be. Sensitivity is close to sensational.

Will the SL3 be a different camera then? I bet. It will have an excellent AF and an articulated screen, while maintaining all the other virtues. Will it become the rich man's sports camera? No. That will be forever Canon's market. And the misunderstanding of what the SL system is, and what not, will continue forever  

 

Thank you .

Eloquently put .

My mistake  was that I thought it was up to fast paced subjects .

Compounded no doubt when I suggested that it should be in order to secure a larger market share .

Not out of any disrespect to the system as it is , rather the opposite, in that its a missed opportunity .

It does work flawlessly in all other respects I agree .

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Michael Markey

[Michael Markey]

6 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

For those of us that use these cameras, PDAF has evolved to an almost magical level of AF capabilitities. Panasonic's DFD/CDAF has not in comparison in 2021. Many of us wonder why Panasonic hasn't converted or incorporated some type of PDAF, but at the same time and in my own experience I was surprised at what I could do and push the SL2's DFD to do based upon the complaints and I do very specifically mean tracking movement. 

I agree. I don't think any of us should pay for an expensive AF system that can't be used to auto focus. FWIW, I do not feel there is an AF contest going on in this discussion. I do however legitimately wonder why some are having issues focusing even on slow to medium movement with this system. 

I agree totally and I`ll continue to push the SL2`s focus system because 1. I love the output and 2. at my age I`m loathe to buy into another system especially a system which I`ve used before and know its pitfalls .

I just feel Panasonic missed a trick here and an already great camera could be better . 

Never had a problem with it focusing on slow to medium movement.

Its fast ,sudden (ie appearing in the frame) and multiple subjects with often backlighting being a factor too .

[LBJ2]

32 minutes ago, hansvons said:

After all, the SL system is a Leica - and not a technology monster. 

I bought into that system for three reasons: colour, sturdiness and optics. I did not buy into the SL because I'm a sports journalist shooting fast-paced subjects. I that was my business, I'd buy a Canon as any other professional sports photographer would do. But I expect the SL2-S to work flawlessly for my reportage-like work, which includes environmental portraits and landscapes, delivering convincing results that justify the premium costs. And Leica delivers.

With the SL2-S, my conversion rate from pulling the trigger to a great photo is never determined by focus. There are many things in the way stopping me from shooting a good picture, but it's not the camera's technology. On the contrary, face recognition and regular point and re-frame works as good as I needed them to be. Sensitivity is close to sensational.

Will the SL3 be a different camera then? I bet. It will have an excellent AF and an articulated screen, while maintaining all the other virtues. Will it become the rich man's sports camera? No. That will be forever Canon's market. And the misunderstanding of what the SL system is, and what not, will continue forever  

 

I bought the SL2 simply because I wanted to buy/own the overnight sensation, the SL 35/2 APO. Ha Ha! What I ended up with is IMO a much more capable camera system than I had expected having read about the AF performance complaints. Like everyone else that participates on photography forums, am happy to report my findings and offer up my results and opinions on such a discussed topic. 

Based upon what is before me and going forward, I think the SL system has a good future and will like the other mirrorless systems continue to evolve sensor and other technology in coming iterations. I do wonder if a faster sensor read speed would also enhance DFD performance but I don't know enough about either technologies and like you I did not buy the SL2 as my sports, birding/BIF camera. 

OTOH, Leica has its work cut out for them in this now fiercely competitive but ever shrinking FF mirrorless market where it really has become all about getting the latest greatest camera, sensor and lenses high tech out there as fast as possible. I am not surprised to see Leica doing with the SL system what other companies must do and heavily market their products and services. I am encouraged by what I see in the SL2-S BSI sensor, the M10R/M sensor and the coming M11 and in some of the tech features I already see in the SL2/SL2-S. Leica is clearly in the advanced tech lane with these latest products. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by LBJ2

[Michael Markey]

6 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

I did not buy the SL2 as my sports, birding/BIF camera. 

OTOH, Leica has its work cut out for them in this now fiercely competitive but ever shrinking FF mirrorless market where it really has become all about getting the latest greatest camera, sensor and lenses high tech out there as fast as possible. 

I did unfortunately .

... and on that second point that was my premise for introducing the subject of AF in this thread .

My view was that the video and the latest trade in deals are because the company are ,in the absence of having these "latest and greatest" , having to respond in this way until they can roll out an SL3 .

I just proposed that they wouldn`t have been so far behind the curve if they`d have had a more advanced AF system at this stage .

Its all about timing and even if that proposition was true I know nothing about what might be involved as regards tech ability and finance .

I didn`t really want to get into the details of the various AF systems themselves because we seem to agree on that . 

Apologies if a derailed there.

[LBJ2]

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19 minutes ago, Michael Markey said:

I agree totally and I`ll continue to push the SL2`s focus system because 1. I love the output and 2. at my age I`m loathe to buy into another system especially a system which I`ve used before and know its pitfalls .

I just feel Panasonic missed a trick here and an already great camera could be better . 

Never had a problem with it focusing on slow to medium movement.

Its fast ,sudden (ie appearing in the frame) and multiple subjects with often backlighting being a factor too .

Good to hear. I missed that you are having success with SL2 AF on slow to medium movement. To me this is critical because it can be a large portion of what we shoot outside of specialities. 

Strong backlighting can bring CDAF to its knees. I saw this with the original Sony A7r which was CDAF only too and apparently nothing has changed with that aspect of CDAF since. Even the Sony A1 AF system can be tested by strong backlighting/lack of contrast in the scene for AF to hang on to. In these lack of contrast scenes the Sony can wobble too. 

FWIW, for the very fast moving target experiments with the SL2 I had to experiment with multiple settings and combination of settings and then practice and as I wrote ignore the AF-C wobble in the EVF which can be very disorienting as DFD does its thing to locate and keep focus. I think this wobbly is slightly better in the latest firmware.

We do agree, going with Panasonic’s DFD put some burden on the SL system to include how the AF lenses were designed. Hopes are that Panasonic as it keeps promising and committing can take their DFD tech even further, much further and I think a faster sensor speed might “help”. 

[Michael Markey]

2 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

We do agree, going with Panasonic’s DFD put some burden on the SL system to include how the AF lenses were designed. Hopes are that Panasonic as it keeps promising and committing can take their DFD tech even further, much further and I think a faster sensor speed might “help”. 

Put some burden ... yes , nice way of putting it .

Odd to think that Leica were one of the pioneers of AF with the Leitz Correfot .

 

[Simone_DF]

8 hours ago, BernardC said:

Everyone knows that the camera near end-of-life. That's what happens with a 3-year-old digicam. I'm sure a replacement will be announced soon, and Panasonic has stated that they are working on a new generation of cameras.

Except that started approximately in May, when the camera was 2 years old, well before December 2021.
Of course there will a replacement, probably next year, and most likely a third iteration too in 4 years from now, these are already in motion, product design takes time, but if they don’t sell enough to warrant a profit, I can’t see Panasonic throwing money out of the window for nothing, though I believe they are in for the long ride, and have the financial means to back their division if needed. And there’s no reason to think the next gen won’t be successful, with the S5 Panasonic showed that they’ve learned the lesson. Better autofocus, smaller body etc. 

[Simone_DF]

8 hours ago, BernardC said:

Everyone else is marginal, especially Sony who have a long history of dropping unprofitable product segments.

Do you mean just like Leica dropped the R, the TL and (allegedly) the CL lines?

Edited December 4, 2021 by Simone_DF

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Michael Markey said:

Put some burden ... yes , nice way of putting it .

Odd to think that Leica were one of the pioneers of AF with the Leitz Correfot .

 

OSPDAF has always some image quality issues, though most often not noticeable. I am glad that SL2 is not using OSPDAF. That said, for sport and wildlife, I rather use my Nikon D5 or Sony A1. 

[Michael Markey]

31 minutes ago, SrMi said:

OSPDAF has always some image quality issues, though most often not noticeable. I am glad that SL2 is not using OSPDAF. That said, for sport and wildlife, I rather use my Nikon D5 or Sony A1. 

Puts fingers in ears   

[Photoworks]

Since we are talking about AF I like to share my experience with SL2.

For most of my everyday work the AF is sufficient . Portrait in studio face eye detect works well, outdoor photography, manual focus all fine for my needs.
In the last few weeks I had few evening events, some with in low light and some candle lights. I was using on camera flash so lighting is not my issue this moment.
I had 1 SL2 with 75SL, and 1 SL2 with 24-90 and Pana 20-60. the AF was absolutely a nightmare, AFs could often not find a focusing point, the lens was just racking back and forward.
The AF red light was always morning on even If I hate to use it, and even switching to M focus was a problem since I could not see the image well with the noise EVF.
1/2 of the images where totally unusable. Funny that the Panasonic lens did better than any of my leica lenses.

Last night I had a big Event fundraiser dinner with low blue light and little light on stage. I decided to take the sony a7R3 and a7R4 with few lenses and some Canon zooms with adapter. To my surprise I had to delete only 2 images from 2000 due to focus issue.
Face detection works on the sony, but do I hate the box with the many little green boxes covering  the face of the person. Leica approach to just show face outline is very welcome and not have jumping squares from eye to eye to nose . I need to see the expressions of my subject, that is most important.

AF in video.
I was filming video tests in NYC in the middle of the day and testing slow pacing and focus following with Summicron SL lenses. I run into the issue where the focus was on a parked car on the street, pull up to the Guggenheim museum and... It looses focus and never get it back. I have tried variations  with 7 different videos. Failed.
I turn the camera to Vertical mode and AFc works every time. 
I remember reading that contrast AF has issues with AF on horizontal lines, but I was surprised to see it on a building with distinctive black and white floor separation.

Let tell a SL2 success story.
I had and interior job of new TV sets. I have adapted tilt shift lenses. many captures where a stiching of 3 or more images.
The camera was connected to Capture one 22 in Multi-shot function . Is was easy and joy to use. It created great Panorama DNG from 3 187MP shots right in C1P.
Sony could not do this so easy. I know you can do multi-shot, but it needs to be edited in post with sony software. Used it once and never again.

For most days, I love the SL2. as you can see I have sony a7r4 and canon R5, but the simple layout and functions makes the SL2 a winner. One day we talk about the poor lighting options.

[Kim Dahl]

8 hours ago, Photoworks said:

Since we are talking about AF I like to share my experience with SL2.

For most of my everyday work the AF is sufficient . Portrait in studio face eye detect works well, outdoor photography, manual focus all fine for my needs.
In the last few weeks I had few evening events, some with in low light and some candle lights. I was using on camera flash so lighting is not my issue this moment.
I had 1 SL2 with 75SL, and 1 SL2 with 24-90 and Pana 20-60. the AF was absolutely a nightmare, AFs could often not find a focusing point, the lens was just racking back and forward.
The AF red light was always morning on even If I hate to use it, and even switching to M focus was a problem since I could not see the image well with the noise EVF.
1/2 of the images where totally unusable. Funny that the Panasonic lens did better than any of my leica lenses.

Last night I had a big Event fundraiser dinner with low blue light and little light on stage. I decided to take the sony a7R3 and a7R4 with few lenses and some Canon zooms with adapter. To my surprise I had to delete only 2 images from 2000 due to focus issue.
Face detection works on the sony, but do I hate the box with the many little green boxes covering  the face of the person. Leica approach to just show face outline is very welcome and not have jumping squares from eye to eye to nose . I need to see the expressions of my subject, that is most important.

AF in video.
I was filming video tests in NYC in the middle of the day and testing slow pacing and focus following with Summicron SL lenses. I run into the issue where the focus was on a parked car on the street, pull up to the Guggenheim museum and... It looses focus and never get it back. I have tried variations  with 7 different videos. Failed.
I turn the camera to Vertical mode and AFc works every time. 
I remember reading that contrast AF has issues with AF on horizontal lines, but I was surprised to see it on a building with distinctive black and white floor separation.

Let tell a SL2 success story.
I had and interior job of new TV sets. I have adapted tilt shift lenses. many captures where a stiching of 3 or more images.
The camera was connected to Capture one 22 in Multi-shot function . Is was easy and joy to use. It created great Panorama DNG from 3 187MP shots right in C1P.
Sony could not do this so easy. I know you can do multi-shot, but it needs to be edited in post with sony software. Used it once and never again.

For most days, I love the SL2. as you can see I have sony a7r4 and canon R5, but the simple layout and functions makes the SL2 a winner. One day we talk about the poor lighting options.

Thanks for the story.  It's a shame that the Leica SL AF does not work better.  
May I ask - why do you have both Canon R5, Sony A7r4 AND Leica SL2?  Everyone is camera with many mega pixels?  

You could choose to only have Canon/Sony/Leica for example?  

With all those systems, you probably also have many lenses in the same focal lengths ? 

 ☺️📷👍🏻

[Simone_DF]

9 hours ago, Photoworks said:

but it needs to be edited in post with sony software. Used it once and never again.

That was only at the beginning, when the feature was released and not yet supported by third party softwares. Now you can import the files directly in Lightroom. I just checked and I have a .arq file in my Lightroom library.

[hamey]

12 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Do you mean just like Leica dropped the R, the TL and (allegedly) the CL lines?

What about the 4/3 system.

[Simone_DF]

39 minutes ago, hamey said:

What about the 4/3 system.

If you mean the DLux, that's a special case, because it was just a repackaged Panasonic. If there's no new Panasonic, there won't be a new Leica either. 

[hamey]

28 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

If you mean the DLux, that's a special case, because it was just a repackaged Panasonic. If there's no new Panasonic, there won't be a new Leica either. 

Yes, but isn't Panasonic still making M4/3 cameras but Leica opted out of the M4/3 system.

 

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[Simone_DF]

18 minutes ago, hamey said:

Yes, but isn't Panasonic still making M4/3 cameras but Leica opted out of the M4/3 system.

You're making some confusion. Panasonic is still making their interchangeable lens GH5 cameras, and the GH6 has been announced a few months ago, to be released sometimes in 2022. Panasonic also release some "Leica approved" lenses for the system. That's where Leica involvment ends.

The DLux 7 is a reskinned Panasonic DC-LX100 II, and there's no sign Panasonic is interested in continuing this line, but who knows. No DC-LX100 = No DLux either.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Simone_DF

[Michael Markey]

10 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

You're making some confusion. Panasonic is still making their interchangeable lens GH5 cameras, and the GH6 has been announced a few months ago, to be released sometimes in 2022. Panasonic also release some "Leica approved" lenses for the system. That's where Leica involvment ends.

The DLux 7 is a reskinned Panasonic DC-LX100 II, and there's no sign Panasonic is interested in continuing this line, but who knows. No DC-LX100 = No DLux either.

So would that same scenario apply to the SL cameras as well ?

 Aren`t they  just a repackaged Panasonic ?