Leica M10-R Black Paint as an Investment

[trequartista]

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Do you think a Leica M10-R Black Paint will at some point develop a good value? Let's say the camera was left unopened: Is that attractive to collectors? And how would the price develop if it were unboxed and used?

[Gobert]

I suggest you ask this question on the Speculation Forum.

[wizard]

In my personal opinion, no digital camera whatsoever will be a good value from a collector's point of view. There are several reasons for that. First, digital cameras are usually not made in small quantities (even the M10R black paint is not). Second, digital technology evolves quickly, thus rendering older model obsolete sooner rather than later. Third, replacement parts may not be available for an extended period of time, unlike the old mechanical cameras which usually may be repaired even after decades.

[Jeff S]

If one becomes a famous and honored photographer, and the black paint has worn off after decades of use, then the camera might be worth considerably more, but less than if one is dead and not able to personally benefit. Otherwise, I can think of better investments.

Jeff

[pippy]

No.

Philip.

[Gobert]

3 hours ago, Jeff S said:

If one becomes a famous and honored photographer, and the black paint has worn off after decades of use, then the camera might be worth considerably more, but less than if one is dead and not able to personally benefit. Otherwise, I can think of better investments.

Jeff

Buy blood diamonds from South Africa.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Gobert

[happymac]

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vor 8 Stunden schrieb trequartista:

Do you think a Leica M10-R Black Paint will at some point develop a good value?

No!

[pippy]

3 hours ago, Al Brown said:

...If you want investment, get a black paint MP from 1956...

Absolutely, Al! I couldn't agree more.

Unfortunately I just missed out on yet another one of those (#55) which was auctioned-off the other day. I was drying my hair and by the time I realised that the lot was 'live' for telephone bidding I was fractionally too late to advance the ultimate hammer-price of 1.2 million Euros. Ah, well; there's bound to be another along in a minute or so...

https://www.leitz-auction.com/auction/en/home

Philip.

Edited November 23, 2021 by pippy

[Lux50]

Definitely not.

[Steve Ash]

Zitat

 

The only way you can make an investment out of it is in making the camera a tool and the output of it into selling products.

 

[pippy]

3 hours ago, Al Brown said:

I am absolutely sure you will be able to find one at a reasonable price while not grooming or in the bathroom. There is hudreds of them out there 😄.

I can always Dream!............

As far as the number available AFAIK it might be anywhere between 139 and 150.

According to Rogliatti - a copy of whose book I picked up in 1983 - there was; "..an initial run...of eleven cameras marked MP1 to MP11.." before series production started properly. I don't have any info regarding the pre-production 11 but of the production run only the first 139 MPs (MP12 to MP150) were Black Paint. The majority (MP151 to MP450) were finished in Satin-Chrome.

As soon as I saw the photograph of the Black-Paint MP in his book I was absolutely smitten by how beautiful it was. I'm not sure the same snap was used in later volumes but in the one I have ("The First Fifty Years", 3rd printing, 1976) the camera used for the illustration is body MP115 complete with B-P Leicavit (of course!) and B-P 50mm f2 Rigid Summicron #1 587 582.

There is also a photo illustrating the Satin-Chrome version (MP392) but it has nowhere near the same aura of beauty IMO.

Incidentally; if any of our Historically Well-Informed ladies or gents could shed some light on the MP1 to MP11 cameras I'd be very interested to know more!

Philip.

[a.noctilux]

Talking about original MP,

strange story in this thread with strange history

MP-253

...

nice image from Wiki, MP1

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

MP2

[pippy]

1 hour ago, a.noctilux said:

Talking about original MP,

strange story in this thread with strange history...

Thanks for the link, Arnaud; very intriguing! Well before my time here, though. Was there any continuation of the story or did it end there? Another thread was mentioned; did that take the story any further?

And at last! It gives me an idea as to what sort of engraving to have on my NOS M2 top-plate......

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

......No; not really.

Philip.

[pippy]

7 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

...I have......Lager's Volume 1 History (Cameras) which lists 6 large pages with images on the 1956/57 MP's and Laney's "Produkt und Sammlerbuch" which lists a slightly different number of MPs made on one page and a half. A pleasure to browse. Probably the coolest M Leica ever made.

It would be interesting (for me at least) to know whether either Lager or Laney cast any light on numbers MP1 to MP11. And when you say Laney lists a slightly different serial number list I have certainly read one list of MP bodies which mentions series production started with MP13 and not MP12 as stated in the 'Fifty Years' book we both have.

I know that Gianni Rogliatti got at least as far as 'The First 70 Years' but don't know if there were any published subsequently. Anyone know more?

Philip.

[pippy]

You would have thought that these things would be well-documented by the factory! Perhaps someone like Bill ('derleicaman') or Lars might have had a look at the factory records? But are we straying slightly off-topic?

Then again; I suspect the OP has received as much help as it is possible to give for a camera which is still currently just another regular production item.

Philip.

[Robert Blanko]

Am 23.11.2021 um 12:36 schrieb trequartista:

Do you think a Leica M10-R Black Paint will at some point develop a good value? Let's say the camera was left unopened: Is that attractive to collectors? And how would the price develop if it were unboxed and used?

Well, store the camera in a sealed plastic bag, filled with nitrogen.

Then you just have to wait and after some time there will be enthusiasts drooling over a virgin M10-R Black Paint for brassing.  🤤

[pippy]

3 hours ago, Robert Blanko said:

...Then you just have to wait and after some time there will be enthusiasts drooling over a virgin M10-R Black Paint for brassing.  🤤...

All joking aside it's highly unlikely that they would be!

The M10-R is a regular production-line model. Nothing special about it. Good camera! But nothing out of the ordinary.

By way of a comparison shall we take the specially engraved, limited-edition '50 Jahre' black-chrome M4 from 1975?

The M4 (as we all know) is reckoned - by some - to be the last of the truly 'proper' M cameras from that Halcyon era of Ernst Leitz and is highly regarded in its own right. The special 50th anniversary release had a suitable 'twined Laurel-branch(?) and 50 Jahre' engraving on the front- and a limited-edition serial number on the back- of the top-plate.

There is, at this very moment, one of these very desirable bodies available in 'A : Like New' condition with matched box, instruction book, hand-dated & ser# matched certificate of authenticity as well as a '50 Jahre' display stand. It is being advertised for £3,900.

Over a 46 year period it is now worth less than the modern equivalent which is the M-A and which costs £4,100.

It was kept with all its 'stuff' in practically brand-new condition for practically 50 years and it is now worth less than it's replacement.

What a crying shame and a terrible waste of a perfectly good camera. IMO, of course.

Philip.

Edited November 24, 2021 by pippy

[rramesh]

All electronics will fail over time. As parts are not made in small quantities, any failure will result in the equipment being rendered unusable. 

Digital cameras are not for long term investment. 

Mechanical parts can be serviced long after. It is also possible to manufacture spares in small quantities. Hence the desire to collect things mechanical.

Edited November 25, 2021 by rramesh

[84bravo]

I have an M10-R in black paint that I bought new for less than the price of a standard M10-R (kudos to PopFlash!). I use it professionally every day. This is the best digital M camera I have used to date, and I've used them all. I suspect that it will garner a few more bucks over a standard M10-R when I eventually upgrade, but I don't see any digital cameras as being investments. Use them up while they are still viable.

Think about it. The M9 is a cult camera due to its CCD sensor. It's a camera that sells for a premium. However, even today a mint M9P with the latest Leica replaced sensor is selling for less than what they were new.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[t_air_ee]

On 11/24/2021 at 6:10 PM, pippy said:

All joking aside it's highly unlikely that they would be!

The M10-R is a regular production-line model. Nothing special about it. Good camera! But nothing out of the ordinary.

By way of a comparison shall we take the specially engraved, limited-edition '50 Jahre' black-chrome M4 from 1975?

The M4 (as we all know) is reckoned - by some - to be the last of the truly 'proper' M cameras from that Halcyon era of Ernst Leitz and is highly regarded in its own right. The special 50th anniversary release had a suitable 'twined Laurel-branch(?) and 50 Jahre' engraving on the front- and a limited-edition serial number on the back- of the top-plate.

There is, at this very moment, one of these very desirable bodies available in 'A : Like New' condition with matched box, instruction book, hand-dated & ser# matched certificate of authenticity as well as a '50 Jahre' display stand. It is being advertised for £3,900.

Over a 46 year period it is now worth less than the modern equivalent which is the M-A and which costs £4,100.

It was kept with all its 'stuff' in practically brand-new condition for practically 50 years and it is now worth less than it's replacement.

What a crying shame and a terrible waste of a perfectly good camera. IMO, of course.

Philip.

In my view, when determining whether any camera (the M4 in your example) was a good investment for its owner, one should compare the price at which the owner bought the M4 (whether new or used) vs value today. Rather than comparing current prices of the M4 vs modern counterpart (M-A). Of course I agree, it is a shame that no one used that M4 for what it was built for.

On the M10-R black paint, it is not entirely production-line in that it is a 2,000 piece limited series. I could see the value go up a bit in the short term, if the M11 ends up having only marginal improvements over M10-R, and/or the M11 suffers from limited availability due to supply chain issues. People that waited to upgrade their M240 or M10 for the M11 may then second-guess that decision, and look to own a limited-series camera that is available for purchase.

Compare it to the market for new cars: shortages have driven up the value of near-new cars above MSRP, while pre-covid there used to be an immediate depreciation (20%?) when driving off the lot.