50mm Summilux-M ASPH - does it *need* a hood?

[tedd]

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Hi gang,

I'm considering picking up a Lux-M in 50mm. My high speed options are currently a first version Lux-R 50mm and Lux-R 80mm on my SL, though to be honest I don't enjoy using that camera anywhere near as much as I thought I would and I'm about ready to move them all on (though I do love the results). I'd like to give a fast lens on M a go (the only 1.4 I've ever had on a rangefinder was an old Canon LTM five years ago), and despite considering myself a Mandler fan, I'm actually leaning toward the Karbe version of this one. 

I am aware of the hood issues on the black chrome, though I've had some 60's Leica glass in the past and really miss that build and feel. My question is - could I get away with using this lens as a day to day without having a hood attached? I know the regular black is more practical on every level and I generally prefer a focus tab. My brain is telling me the BC is a ridiculous idea as I am not a collector by any means. But my heart...

Thanks!

[horosu]

The 50/1.4 Summilux ASPH is the most flare resistant Leica lens, in my opinion. You can use it without a hood without reservations

[IkarusJohn]

The 50 Summilux-M ASPH was designed in the Koelsch era - before Peter Karbe took over as head of lens design, though I seem to recall that Peter Karbe had a part in designing the 50 Summilux ASPH.

I have both the silver chrome 50 Summillux ASPH and the black chrome 50 APO Summicron.  There’s no need to comment on the rendering, as this is well covered elsewhere, other than to say the first versions of the APO had flare problems (since fixed) and I have had no problem of flare with the Summillux.

With the Summilux, I tend to extract the built in hood for lens protection as much as anything else.  I use that lens most on my Monochrom, with a yellow filter living on it.  The lens is smooth as butter to focus with the focus tab, despite the slight stiffness the FLE gives at close focus.  I found that working the focus tab as I sat and watched TV helped to smooth it out.  It was certainly a little stiff when new.

With the APO, the lens hood looks great, but it is a bit of a pain (same with the 35 Summilux-M pre-asph).  You have to take the lens hood off to put the lens cap on, which means the hood is kicking around in your bag when you’re not using it.  I find I leave the lens cap on my desk, and rely on the lens hood to protect the front element when I’m not using the lens (not ideal).  However, I like to use hoods, so there we are.  

The 1960s look and feel of the black chrome lens is lovely, and focusing takes a little getting used to (no different from other tabless lenses - the 21 Summilux, the 28 Summaron, Noctilux 0.95 and 75 Summillux).  I like the scalloped focusing ring in use.  I just find I have to return the focus to infinity, so I know where I’m starting from.

If it were me, I’d go for the black chrome version - they look fabulous …

Edited November 22, 2021 by IkarusJohn

[evikne]

OK, so you mean the Black Chrome version, that wasn't clear until your last paragraph. I've had both the regular version and the BC. I always left the BC hood at home because it was too big and heavy. Many owners I've heard of do the same. Flare is not something to worry about. 

I was no fan of the hood, but I loved the look and tactile feel of the scalloped focus ring. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by evikne

[IkarusJohn]

7 hours ago, evikne said:

OK, so you mean the Black Chrome version, that wasn't clear until your last paragraph. I've had both the regular version and the BC. I always left the BC hood at home because it was too big and heavy. Many owners I've heard of do the same. Flare is not something to worry about. 

I was no fan of the hood, but I loved the look and tactile feel of the scalloped focus ring. 

How did you miss the references to black chrome?  They’re throughout the post 😀

Perhaps it wasn’t clear enough that I don’t have the black chrome 50 Summilux-M ASPH … go on, read it again!

[tedd]

8 hours ago, horosu said:

The 50/1.4 Summilux ASPH is the most flare resistant Leica lens, in my opinion. You can use it without a hood without reservations

Exactly what I wanted to hear, thank you!

8 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

The 50 Summilux-M ASPH was designed in the Koelsch era - before Peter Karbe took over as head of lens design, though I seem to recall that Peter Karbe had a part in designing the 50 Summilux ASPH.

I have both the silver chrome 50 Summillux ASPH and the black chrome 50 APO Summicron.  There’s no need to comment on the rendering, as this is well covered elsewhere, other than to say the first versions of the APO had flare problems (since fixed) and I have had no problem of flare with the Summillux.

With the Summilux, I tend to extract the built in hood for lens protection as much as anything else.  I use that lens most on my Monochrom, with a yellow filter living on it.  The lens is smooth as butter to focus with the focus tab, despite the slight stiffness the FLE gives at close focus.  I found that working the focus tab as I sat and watched TV helped to smooth it out.  It was certainly a little stiff when new.

With the APO, the lens hood looks great, but it is a bit of a pain (same with the 35 Summilux-M pre-asph).  You have to take the lens hood off to put the lens cap on, which means the hood is kicking around in your bag when you’re not using it.  I find I leave the lens cap on my desk, and rely on the lens hood to protect the front element when I’m not using the lens (not ideal).  However, I like to use hoods, so there we are.  

The 1960s look and feel of the black chrome lens is lovely, and focusing takes a little getting used to (no different from other tabless lenses - the 21 Summilux, the 28 Summaron, Noctilux 0.95 and 75 Summillux).  I like the scalloped focusing ring in use.  I just find I have to return the focus to infinity, so I know where I’m starting from.

If it were me, I’d go for the black chrome version - they look fabulous …

Interesting little bit of history there, I was (incorrectly) under the assumption that it was a modern lens. I now see that it's a remnant of the film era, perhaps why it looks to render a little bit friendlier than the other ASPH lenses that I've always strayed away from. 

I'm also a 'lens cap at home, protective filter on the lens' type of person and do like the idea of the extra protection from the hood too, but the truth is that I don't take my camera everywhere and I'm usually pretty carefulish. I also prefer a focus tab in general use (though my current v5 Cron doesn't have one) but I have a much stronger emotional connection to (pictures on the internet of) the black chrome and that's a huge part of the reason I shoot Leica! I think I have probably made up my mind at this point. Thanks!

 

8 hours ago, evikne said:

OK, so you mean the Black Chrome version, that wasn't clear until your last paragraph. I've had both the regular version and the BC. I always left the BC hood at home because it was too big and heavy. Many owners I've heard of do the same. Flare is not something to worry about. 

I was no fan of the hood, but I loved the look and tactile feel of the scalloped focus ring. 

I meant both as I assumed they would handle flare the same way due to the identical optical design. Or does the slightly different barrel design cause a change in behaviour? Thanks.

 

23 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

How did you miss the references to black chrome?  They’re throughout the post 😀

Perhaps it wasn’t clear enough that I don’t have the black chrome 50 Summilux-M ASPH … go on, read it again!

I think he was referring to my OP! 

[evikne]

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1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

How did you miss the references to black chrome?  They’re throughout the post 😀

I thought that if the thread was about the BC version, it should have been clearly stated already in the title, because removing the hood on the standard version is impossible and gives no meaning. 

But now the author says the thread was about both versions, and that gives meaning too, when I read it again.

[Kwesi]

21 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

The 50 Summilux-M ASPH was designed in the Koelsch era - before Peter Karbe took over as head of lens design, though I seem to recall that Peter Karbe had a part in designing the 50 Summilux ASPH.

Karbe played a major role in the development of the 50/1.4 ASPH.

https://www.shutterbug.com/content/leica-lens-saga-interview-peter-karbe

 

[Jeff S]

On 11/22/2021 at 3:32 PM, IkarusJohn said:

The 50 Summilux-M ASPH was designed in the Koelsch era - before Peter Karbe took over as head of lens design, though I seem to recall that Peter Karbe had a part in designing the 50 Summilux ASPH.

 

More than a small part…. as described in this very interesting interview (see both pages), which I’ve linked before…

https://www.shutterbug.com/content/leica-lens-saga-interview-peter-karbe

Jeff

Edited November 23, 2021 by Jeff S

[IkarusJohn]

Just now, Jeff S said:

More than a part…. as described in this very interesting interview (see both pages), which I’ve linked before…

https://www.shutterbug.com/content/leica-lens-saga-interview-peter-karbe

Jeff

Yes, as Kwesi has already pointed out above.

Despite its relative age, it is one of my favourite lenses (actually, almost all of my M lenses are my favourites) primarily for its out of focus rendering.

[Jeff S]

Mine, too.  More than the 50 APO I tried.

Jeff

[evikne]

One thing in the interview I don't understand is when Karbe says: "One key element in achieving good bokeh is that when you stop down to a small aperture, the iris diaphragm should maintain a nearly circular shape."

So why does the 50 Summilux ASPH still have this rather ugly ninja star shaped diaphragm when stopped down? This is one thing that really annoys me, and one of the reasons I now use the pre-ASPH instead.

[IkarusJohn]

15 minutes ago, evikne said:

One thing in the interview I don't understand is when Karbe says: "One key element in achieving good bokeh is that when you stop down to a small aperture, the iris diaphragm should maintain a nearly circular shape."

So why does the 50 Summilux ASPH still have this rather ugly ninja star shaped diaphragm when stopped down? This is one thing that really annoys me, and one of the reasons I now use the pre-ASPH instead.

I've wondered this too.

I have a coated Summitar 50/2 LTM lens (SOORE-B) from 1948, with a 10 blade aperture, which provides a circular iris stopped down.  I haven't noticed, or looked for, hexagonal balls in out of focus areas with the 50 Summilux-M ASPH.  Not sure I should have looked for it ...

[Slender]

On 11/23/2021 at 10:28 PM, evikne said:

One thing in the interview I don't understand is when Karbe says: "One key element in achieving good bokeh is that when you stop down to a small aperture, the iris diaphragm should maintain a nearly circular shape."

So why does the 50 Summilux ASPH still have this rather ugly ninja star shaped diaphragm when stopped down? This is one thing that really annoys me, and one of the reasons I now use the pre-ASPH instead.

Well, stopped down at 16 it is indeed nearly circular. What you want is also an odd number of blades (9) for nice sunstars.

For the 50 1.4 asph, its the very same aperture architecture (number of blades, shape, diameter) as the M 90 2.8, and both have superb, extraordinary bokeh.

Circular blades have more influence on the forms of bokeh balls.... not necessarily the whole aspect of the out of focus area...

 

[evikne]

54 minutes ago, Slender said:

Well, stopped down at 16 it is indeed nearly circular. What you want is also an odd number of blades (9) for nice sunstars.

For the 50 1.4 asph, its the very same aperture architecture (number of blades, shape, diameter) as the M 90 2.8, and both have superb, extraordinary bokeh.

Circular blades have more influence on the forms of bokeh balls.... not necessarily the whole aspect of the out of focus area...

I agree that the 50 Summilux-M ASPH has an extraordinary bokeh. I just can't stand the shape of the bokeh balls. They are worst around f/2.8 IIRC. Fortunately, this doesn't seem to affect the rest of the OOF area.

[UliWer]

On 11/23/2021 at 11:28 PM, evikne said:

"One key element in achieving good bokeh is that when you stop down to a small aperture, the iris diaphragm should maintain a nearly circular shape."

Well, may be the optical department said it should, but the financial department didn't agree.

Perhaps this is the reason for the first commandment of Karbe: "Never stop down a Leica lens!"

[jaeger]

At a very specific angle, each element will create a ghost, I verified that this lens does have 8 elements in this sample picture.  You probably can experiment that using the EVF on your summilux, then you can determine if you need a hood or not.  I don't hate them in this picture I took, I still love this picture very much.

P.S. there will be flares at certain angles too, I like it sometimes and sometimes don't fit.  depends on what I'm doing.

 

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Edited November 25, 2021 by jaeger

[Slender]

2 hours ago, UliWer said:

Perhaps this is the reason for the first commandment of Karbe: "Never stop down a Leica lens!"

also one of the reasons he is a terrible photographer lol.... but heh that's not meant to be his field of excellence... same I wouldn't dare give him "commandments" about lens design...



Anyway.

Has any lucky owner of a BC 50 1.4 ever successfully attached HOOD + Filter? Could a very skinny e43 B+W uv one be fitted after the hood has been slotted in place, like Overguaard suggest he does in his review video of the lens?

Edited November 25, 2021 by Slender

[Kwesi]

14 hours ago, Slender said:

also one of the reasons he is a terrible photographer lol.... but heh that's not meant to be his field of excellence... same I wouldn't dare give him "commandments" about lens design...



Anyway.

Has any lucky owner of a BC 50 1.4 ever successfully attached HOOD + Filter? Could a very skinny e43 B+W uv one be fitted after the hood has been slotted in place, like Overguaard suggest he does in his review video of the lens?

The link below takes a deep dive into your question

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Slender]

2 hours ago, Kwesi said:

The link below takes a deep dive into your question

 

Cheers!