How to get the very best quality image from a Leica.

[MikeMyers]

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I guess you're right, but what I wrote was that I usually enjoy Ken's articles, and I do.  

12 hours ago, Ornello said:

He makes unqualified generalizations that reveal his limited cognitive capacity.

I've got my own "limited cognitive capacity", and Ken makes things easier for me to understand - and his audience is people who know much less than the amount I understand.

There are discussions in this forum, such as the one a year or so ago on ISO, that I get lost in.  Maybe Ken's "limited cognitive capacity" matches my own.  I don't always agree with him, but I don't always agree with anyone - I'd like to form my own opinion, as best I can.  I've always considered ISO (ASA) to be a triangle, ISO, Aperture, Shutter, and I thought I could increase any of them, by decreasing another, and get the expected result.  Apparently ISO doesn't play nice with this idea - and while I think it was @jaapvwho got me to understand it the best, I got lost in the technical details (not enough cognitive capacity, or maybe I'm losing some of what I have as I get older).

I'll do a search for "Erwin Puts" later today, and check out some of his articles - any that you would suggest in particular, for starting out?  I did a quick search, and even found this (https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/puts/leica-compendium.htm ), but rather than looking for books that are difficult to find, are his article posted on the internet where I can download them?  Sadly, I also found this: (http://joerivanderkloet.com/erwin-puts-says-bye-bye-leica/ ).  Apparently he gave up on Leica.  Anyway, if you know of on-line material from Erwin Puts, I'll gladly check it out - but I'm interested in articles relating to photography, not technical details of various products.  I've got an M3, an M2, an M8.2, and a M10.  I'd like to learn how to use them better.  

[jaapv]

https://photo.imx.nl/blog/index.html

Forget about Joeri's article - although that was more or less true at the time, I knew him personally and he never REALLY gave up.

[Ornello]

3 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

I guess you're right, but what I wrote was that I usually enjoy Ken's articles, and I do.  

I've got my own "limited cognitive capacity", and Ken makes things easier for me to understand - and his audience is people who know much less than the amount I understand.

There are discussions in this forum, such as the one a year or so ago on ISO, that I get lost in.  Maybe Ken's "limited cognitive capacity" matches my own.  I don't always agree with him, but I don't always agree with anyone - I'd like to form my own opinion, as best I can.  I've always considered ISO (ASA) to be a triangle, ISO, Aperture, Shutter, and I thought I could increase any of them, by decreasing another, and get the expected result.  Apparently ISO doesn't play nice with this idea - and while I think it was @jaapvwho got me to understand it the best, I got lost in the technical details (not enough cognitive capacity, or maybe I'm losing some of what I have as I get older).

I'll do a search for "Erwin Puts" later today, and check out some of his articles - any that you would suggest in particular, for starting out?  I did a quick search, and even found this (https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/puts/leica-compendium.htm ), but rather than looking for books that are difficult to find, are his article posted on the internet where I can download them?  Sadly, I also found this: (http://joerivanderkloet.com/erwin-puts-says-bye-bye-leica/ ).  Apparently he gave up on Leica.  Anyway, if you know of on-line material from Erwin Puts, I'll gladly check it out - but I'm interested in articles relating to photography, not technical details of various products.  I've got an M3, an M2, an M8.2, and a M10.  I'd like to learn how to use them better.  

Here is his blog:

https://photo.imx.nl/

[Jeff S]

The M8.2 is capable of fantastic b/w prints, given a worthy pic and diligent PP and print workflow.  I have prints from both it and the M10, and viewers don’t know the difference.

Jeff

[MikeMyers]

20 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The M8.2 is capable of fantastic b/w prints, given a worthy pic and diligent PP and print workflow.  I have prints from both it and the M10, and viewers don’t know the difference.

 

I went to the beach here in Miami Beach a few days ago, with the M8.2, with my 7Artisans 50mm mounted - I enjoy using that lens on the M8 because the worst part of the images from this inexpensive lens are cut off.  The photo below was taken just as the sun was getting pretty low on the horizon.  The shutter speed had to be high enough to keep the seagulls acceptably sharp, the ISO was at 640 as I recall, and while I didn't want the lens open too much, I just kept adjusting the aperture as needed for the built-in metering to tell me I was "close enough".  I suspect I could have done the same with my M10, but I was determined to use the older Leica.  It didn't have (or need) the IR blocking filter, as the one I ordered from Amazon arrived the following day.  

My opinion - the M8.2 is not a camera that takes care of everything on its own, as a Nikon often does - it needs constant attention.  But that attention I find very enjoyable.  It's more of a challenge to use than an M10.  Unfortunately/fortunately I can't process images from the M8.2 in PhotoLab, but I'm slowly learning to get used to DarkTable.

My "buddy" Ken Rockwell think the M8 cameras were a horrible mistake by Leica, but having read the history of the M8, that's not true at all (although nobody seems to know this).  Leica had very good reasons for doing exactly what they did.  I took a tripod with me on my trip to the country last week, and got some wonderful infrared photos, far better than I've ever captured before - this time with a proper filter from KolariVision (https://kolarivision.com).  

I probably ought to have used my Voigtlander f/2 50mm instead, but I wanted to find out if my M8.2 with the simple lens was adequate for "walkabout" photos, including places lie a beach.

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[Jeff S]

I used the essentially same Leica lenses on my  M8.2 (now sold) that I currently use on M10 bodies, but always with a cut UV/IR filter on the former. Infrared has no interest. I couldn’t care less what Rockwell says, positive or negative, and don’t rely on any reviewer to assess my gear; that’s up to me.  The M8.2 had no significant IQ problems based on my own shooting, printing and display workflow. Any print quality concerns are due to my deficiencies, not the camera. The M10 bodies are appreciated more for their vastly improved VF, quiet operation, build quality and close tolerances, etc, in addition to the obvious differences in effective FOV.
 

Jeff

[MikeMyers]

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6 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

and don’t rely on any reviewer to assess my gear; that’s up to me.

I don't consider myself an expert on Leica, but I agree with you - the results are what count, and I enjoy the results from my M8.2 - but I can't say I ignore what others think, which is part of why I enjoy this forum so much.  I don't know enough to say how good or bad my gear is, as most of that is based on what I know, and can do, not what the camera is capable of.  At the same time, I enjoy seeing what others can do - thinking if they can do it, I can also learn how to do it. 

The M10 makes it easier for me to create good images. My M8.2 is more challenging.  

Anyway, that question is part of why I posted this thread, trying to find out how *I* can get the best out of my cameras.  I probably took 100 or so images of the beach and seagulls and people and other things, but all except four got deleted.  Curious - why did you sell your M8.2 ?  Just curious.

[Jeff S]

21 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Curious - why did you sell your M8.2 ?  Just curious.

The M240 was a more robust and quieter platform and provided full use of my lenses, uncropped. Prior to the M8.2, all of my work since the 70’s was film based, including M film bodies. 

Jeff

[250swb]

7 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

 

Anyway, that question is part of why I posted this thread, trying to find out how *I* can get the best out of my cameras.  I probably took 100 or so images of the beach and seagulls and people and other things, but all except four got deleted. 

That isn't a bad hit rate, if only more people were so good at editing. I don't think you should delete the unused photos, just as nobody would throw away unprinted negatives, but from a roll of 36 three or four worthy images is a good average, sometimes more, sometimes less. With digital there is an instinct to blast away a bit more, so four or five from one hundred is still a good average. If you are dissatisfied try to slow everything down, maybe try using a tripod so you can take a step back and contemplate compositional refinements, or is an interesting cloud about to come into shot, maybe you need to wait for more people, or fewer people? If my camera is on a tripod I compose the scene and then I'm standing around looking behind me, right and left, or upwards at the sky to see what might happen next.

Edited December 18, 2021 by 250swb

[MikeMyers]

If I set up the camera on a tripod, and carefully compose a scene, I will almost always take only two images - one is enough, but even Ansel Adams wanted to take a second photo of Moonrise, but the light was gone.

If I'm taking photos, in this case of seagulls, most photos are technically OK, but the birds rarely get into a composition I like - so I keep trying to do better.

I don't delete anything in-camera, only at home, and I see no point for me in keeping poor images.  As to "unused" photos, I usually do as you suggest, but "bad/poor/blurry/eyes-closed/etc phots get deleted.  Long ago, I used to keep everything, but years later it's difficult to remember which I liked the most, especially when they were in so many different configurations.  Now, with PhotoMechanic, everything is stored in a "standard" configuration.  I wish I knew that long ago.  

What I did at the beach was "spray and pray", as the birds were moving too fast.  I stopped taking careful photos, and tried to just watch the birds for composition - when I had the most seagulls in a frame, preferably with people to give the photos some human interest, I captured the photo without thinking about it.  I'll post one more example below - it was composed long before my fingers took this, and dozens of similar photos - and almost all of them were deleted.  It's not a great photo by any means, but it did accomplish my goal, to capture a "swarm" of hungry seagulls attracted to what they thought of as "food".  Anyone who dropped even a small piece of bread had it taken away by a seagull, usually with several gulls diving for the food at the same moment.  Moral of this story - don't feed seagulls at a tourist beach!

I'll post a second photo too - even when everything goes perfectly, one person doing something non-photogenic can ruin it...

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Edited December 18, 2021 by MikeMyers

[Herr Barnack]

On 11/29/2021 at 8:40 PM, SrMi said:

 

4 Reasons Why the Leica M2 is Better Than the M3

My M can beat up your M. 😅

[Ornello]

You're asking the wrong question. The portable camera is not intended to get the ultimate quality image, but rather the spontaneous image. Did HCB use a tripod? I doubt it! Using a Leica on a tripod is heresy.

[250swb]

26 minutes ago, Ornello said:

You're asking the wrong question. The portable camera is not intended to get the ultimate quality image, but rather the spontaneous image. Did HCB use a tripod? I doubt it! Using a Leica on a tripod is heresy.

I've not come across a tripod for a 35mm camera that isn't portable, but if you want the ultimate quality from any camera a tripod is essential. 

Did HCB use a tripod, I guess very rarely, but that is because he didn't do the sort of 35mm photography that necessitated a tripod.

On the other hand there are a lot of 35mm photographers who do use a tripod, so are you really suggesting that if you have a Leica you should run out and buy a Nikon just to use with a tripod if you want ultimate quality? Kind of a dichotomy there. Probably this is all just Leica fanboy bollocks, pigeonholing a camera to be subject specific, and ignoring that Leica themselves incorporated something called a tripod socket into the baseplate of their cameras?

It also makes a fool of people who do endless tests looking for perfection in film processing while at the same time denying the ultimate equipment for making the perfect exposure, a tripod.

No a tripod isn't essential for 35mm, but neither can it be ignored.

[david strachan]

3 hours ago, Ornello said:

...Using a Leica on a tripod is heresy...

....

[MikeMyers]

If I was taking a landscape photo with my Leica (or whatever) I would likely prefer (but maybe not have) a tripod.  Most of my photography is hand-held.  The advantage of the small, light, inconspicuous Leica is lost, when you set up a tripod.  

Me?  I use whatever camera I have with me.  It depends on what I'm planning on photographing.  Leica, Nikon, Fuji, Canon, whatever.....    I don't take my Leica with me everywhere I go, but maybe I should.

 

[wda]

In landscape,  a tripod is more often used to preserve a carefully selected viewpoint, while waiting for the light. Patience is rarely mentioned in photography.

[MikeMyers]

There is that very short period when photographing around sunset time, when the sky goes from "too bright" to "too dark" - much less than five minutes.  Everything has to be set up ahead of time, composition, camera/tripod placement, etc.  That just leaves exposure, but I started taking photos from "too early" up until "too late", giving me a choice later as to which I preferred, and my exposure was constantly being adjusted based on the previous image.  The tripod took away many of the variables, so, as you note,   I was just waiting for "the light".

As to cameras, I usually used "what I had", and since I was often traveling, frequently to India, I had only one "better" camera and one "smaller" camera to select from.  Given a choice of RF or SLR, I think I would (and maybe still do) prefer SLR (now dSLR).  I think the Visoflex would accomplish the same thing - I preferred seeing the actual image, not the rangefinder view.

With a large format camera, things would likely be different, waiting for the right moment and taking one, but more likely two, images.  Having a backup image always seemed prudent to me, but maybe others would do it in one shot, and confidently put their camera away.

 

(As I'm writing this, I remember how this used to happen frequently many years ago in Madurai, India, at Meenachi Temple, but first they banned tripods, and then they banned cameras.  I'm lucky to have my older photos, but I'll probably never get to do this again......)

 

Thinking about this again, one of my favorite cameras was the Fuji X-100 series.  Had Fuji built a full-frame camera like this, Leica would now have some real solid competition.  With the Fuji, I could switch back and forth between "live" view, like my M cameras, or "digital".  My preference would be a dSLR though, with all the benefits of both systems.  I have much less desire for "mirrorless", but I think I would be perfectly content with an M camera with a Visoflex on top.

[Ko.Fe.]

Good picture is not about film or digital. But KR is not capable of really good picture. So, he writes some gearheadish articles. 

You can't match digital camera vs film camera of same lens mount.

It is dead horse which not even exist anymore, so long it has been dead, but some are still trying of beating it.

Film quality is different from digital quality. But some will never realize it.

Maybe it is self-saving instinct. For many I have seen on forums. It is easier to deal with technicalities in photography, instead of trying to improve their photography. They just think that it depends on gear and media format instead.

[MikeMyers]

I agree with your conclusion, but disagree with the earlier part.

Ken Rockwell is talented, and can create good photo, technically, and in every other way.  Some people may not like them, but others do.

For me, the end result is a digital image I view on an electronic screen.  Whether it came from digital, or film, or 35mm, or 4x5 is irrelevant.  The image stand on its own.  There may be very different tools to work with those different formats, but so what?

3 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Maybe it is self-saving instinct. For many I have seen on forums. It is easier to deal with technicalities in photography, instead of trying to improve their photography. They just think that it depends on gear and media format instead.

Sure, but so what?  If they're enjoying doing this, why not?  People buy Ferrari cars, but that doesn't make them a better driver.  

I know what you mean, I think, but so what?  One of my relative's friends cares far more about his camera gear than the photographs he takes, but if he's enjoying himself, why not?

People buy limited edition Leica cameras to put on their shelves and show off, but again, so what?  If that's what they enjoy, good for them.

 

I haven't won that many contests or awards, but I very much enjoy photography, and I especially enjoy using a Leica because it "fits" me....   ...but so does my Nikon and Fuji, although in a different way.  The Leica feels like part of me.  The Nikon feels like a tool that I am holding.  If that sounds silly, so be it.

 

Anyway, back to what you wrote:

3 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Film quality is different from digital quality. But some will never realize it.

So, to a person looking at a photograph, what is the difference between a film photograph or a digital photograph?  

How many people can tell the difference?

 

And back to the purpose of this thread, how to get the best quality image from a Leica, are you suggesting either film or digital is "better"?

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[Wandering Photographer]

On 11/14/2021 at 9:10 PM, MikeMyers said:

Because of some discussions I've had with other people in other forums, I was wondering how the quality of the digital Leica M cameras compare with what can be done with an M3.  I got to reading Ken Rockwell's review:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/m3.htm

Which led me to this wonderful photo he took with an M3:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/trips/2014-05-yosemite/16/70050007-1200.jpg

View it in the largest size.

Given the time to do it properly, being careful and using a good tripod, how many M cameras can match or exceed this quality?  I suspect that any film Leica with the same quality lens will create the same quality image.  From what I've seen myself, my M8.2 won't match this, and my M10 with the new Voigtlander lens may be as good or better, which leaves the other models of the M10 which I've never even seen.  And the newest Leica lenses I've read are at least as good as the Voigtlander, if not better.

(In real life, which means walking around with my camera with a neck strap, raising it up to my eye, and taking a photo, I don't get this kind of quality - for me, a tripod is essential for sharpness.  I don't think my Nikon gear can do this either.  The film grain in the film he used is so fine, I would need a strong magnifier to see it.)

 

It's a very powerful article.  My own M3 has been off at DAG Camera Repair for a few months, and Don says I'll be getting it back this coming week.  I'm wondering if I can match the image quality from my M10, by carefully using an M3, with appropriate film.

.....and to be honest, images like this are not the reason I bought the Leica way back when - I wanted something powerful, and quiet, and durable, and small, that would match any other camera I compared it to.  Nowadays I seem to be using my M10 for shots I would use a view camera for, if I still had one.....

Ken Rockckwell doesn't allow hot linking from other sites to is trips pages. However if you copy and past the link, you will see an excellent photograph.