Using S for 'scanning' film/slides

[helged]

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Hello folks!

Any experience using one of the S007 or S3 and e.g. S120 to scan film? In my case 6x7 format (from Mamiya 7).

Thanks!

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[djmay]

I have used S3 with S120 to “scan” 4x5, 6x6 and 35mm negatives. The results were excellent.

[helged]

2 minutes ago, djmay said:

I have used S3 with S120 to “scan” 4x5, 6x6 and 35mm negatives. The results were excellent.

Goodie! Any particular light source (light table, flash, etc., or simply overcast day light)?

[djmay]

9 hours ago, helged said:

Goodie! Any particular light source (light table, flash, etc., or simply overcast day light)?

I use a Kaiser light table and enlarger negative carrier. I mask the light table so that light only comes through the negative.

[BernardC]

Same here. The light source that I use is an old contact printer that came in a job lot of darkroom stuff. A Kaiser light table would work just as well. I put the negatives in an enlarger carrier and mask the space around the carrier with black plastic (the bag that darkroom paper comes in).

I use enlarging lenses in a Hasselblad bellows. The S 120 would probably be even better, but I don't have that lens.

I convert the DNGs to positives using RawTherapee. There are other options for this step. One nice thing about RawTherapee (besides being free) is that you can choose different de-Bayering methods. This helps when your grain size is very close to the sensor resolution. You can also save your settings and apply them to all similar negs. You could have a T-Max 100 6x6 setting, for instance. The first neg takes a while to dial-in, but subsequent images only need exposure adjustment.

I think that an SL-2 would be even better, using multi-shot mode, but I haven't tried.

[Sailronin]

I use my S(006) with a light box to copy 4x5 negatives. Once copied I import the file to SilverEfx Pro and reverse the curves to get a positive image as below.  I don't know about reversing the curve with a color negative as I've never tried.

 

"Ghost in the subway" c.2000 shot with a Combo 4x5 with 8 inch Ektar lens on Kodak Tri-X pan professional film. At full resolution this image is sharp.

 

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Edited October 7, 2021 by Sailronin

[xiaubauu2009]

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I find 'scanning' with camera tends to have less dust....

[LocalHero1953]

I use my SL2-S for scanning in multishot mode - it works fine. I use the 24-90SL zoom for 4x5 images (at 90, because the lens extends under gravity😕), and the Macro-Elmarit-R 100mm + ELPRO for 35mm negatives (i.e. at 1:1). You get two images: one at the multishot resolution and one at normal resolution (24mp). I have never actually compared them to see what is lost at the lower res end. I'll do that next time.

Like others, I use a Kaiser light table. I just lay the 4x5 negatives on the table with a black card mask, and use a home made card sandwich mount for 35mm negatives. One day I'll get an enlarger mount.

[Ouroboros]

On 10/7/2021 at 1:52 AM, Sailronin said:

......I don't know about reversing the curve with a color negative as I've never tried.

 

 

You'd find that a C-41 negative would need quite a bit more work than simply inverting the curve to produce a good colour corrected inversion.  It's the reason why I use  Imacon and Plustek  film scanners and their respective softwares to scan my C41 negs and to deal with the orange mask at source.  Others use third party editing software and plug-ins such as NLP, ColorPerfect & G2P etc with good results.

  35mm black and white film is easy to copy with a dslr, in my case I use a Nikon D810, 60mm nikkor micro lens and ES-2 for speed and convenience.  All my medium format colour and black and white film that makes the cut goes through my Imacon.

 

[OttoWitte]

On 10/29/2021 at 9:51 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

I use my SL2-S for scanning in multishot mode - it works fine. I use the 24-90SL zoom for 4x5 images (at 90, because the lens extends under gravity😕), and the Macro-Elmarit-R 100mm + ELPRO for 35mm negatives (i.e. at 1:1). You get two images: one at the multishot resolution and one at normal resolution (24mp). I have never actually compared them to see what is lost at the lower res end. I'll do that next time.

Like others, I use a Kaiser light table. I just lay the 4x5 negatives on the table with a black card mask, and use a home made card sandwich mount for 35mm negatives. One day I'll get an enlarger mount.

I had the idea this morning to photograph a fim strip with Multishot. I'm glad that there is someone here who has experience with it. I have the SL2 and with 187MP resolution it should beat a film scanner hands down, right? Which film holder do you use over your light table?

[frame-it]

2 hours ago, OttoWitte said:

I have the SL2 and with 187MP resolution it should beat a film scanner hands down, right?

depends on which lens youre using

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, OttoWitte said:

I had the idea this morning to photograph a fim strip with Multishot. I'm glad that there is someone here who has experience with it. I have the SL2 and with 187MP resolution it should beat a film scanner hands down, right? Which film holder do you use over your light table?

For 35mm I use the Essential Film Holder. It is OK, but for short strips you have to keep checking the focus, as the beginning and end frames of each strip are not securely supported. It's better f you're using AF. For 35mm I plan to move to the Valoi Easy35 with a AF lens.

For 5x4 I made my own card mask, painted black, that I lay directly on the negative, directly on the Kaiser.

I no longer use multishot. With film I simply don't think you gain a better image. You just get high resolution grain, and a digital file that is extra large.

 

Edited August 4, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[250swb]

Around 24mp is enough if copying full frame to full frame to get maximum resolution. The only time more megapixels are useful is if the negative you are copying isn't the same ratio, such as 6x6, which means some of the imaging area of the sensor is wasted. A very good 1:1 macro lens is almost essential. I use home made negative holders with a piece of ANR glass to hold the negative flat.

[Einst_Stein]

I also see digital camera scans much better than the film scanners I have : Polaroid 45A and Leafscan 45. I tried Contax 645 120mm lens but end up using Apo Rodenstock 75mm f4 from the Leafscan 45.

I don't see medium format camera adds much more value than 35mm full frame. But which format matters depends on your film size.

For example, to scan 120 films, the Apo Rodagon works its best since the enlarge factor is close to 1. This is the sweet spot of the Apo Rodagon. But to can 135 films, the enlargement is larger, especially when I want to crop scan. I prefer to use smaller sensor, such as Leica M. 

About light source, make sure not grid. Puting iphone is plain white screen does not work well. It is grided. 

About the film carrier, I prefer the 2-piece acrylic film frame. The thickness is about half ince, it keep the film flat and away from dust. I never expose the inner surfaces, and I always de-dust the film before putting into the acrylic frame. The dusts on the outer surface does not matter (and on the light source), since they are de-focused.   

[Stuart Richardson]

6 hours ago, OttoWitte said:

I had the idea this morning to photograph a fim strip with Multishot. I'm glad that there is someone here who has experience with it. I have the SL2 and with 187MP resolution it should beat a film scanner hands down, right? Which film holder do you use over your light table?

In my experience, it is as good as the Epson V850, which is a decent scanner. I did the test because my X5 broke, and I had to decide weather to use the V850 (I use it only for 8x10, typically), or the SL2. The scanner wins for ease of use and lack of flare. The camera is more flexible. I should go back and scan the file again with the X5 and see how it looks. There is more processing leeway in the SL2 too. It might win on sharpness as well. But when edited together they are very close. I did a test between my 120mm APO Macro S and 105mm Sigma 2.8 APO on the SL2 vs the V850 at 6400, so have a look. The film was 6x7 Provia.

SL2 w/ Leica 120mm

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SL2 w/ Sigma

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Film crop

[BernardC]

20 hours ago, Einst_Stein said:

For example, to scan 120 films, the Apo Rodagon works its best since the enlarge factor is close to 1. This is the sweet spot of the Apo Rodagon. But to can 135 films, the enlargement is larger, especially when I want to crop scan. I prefer to use smaller sensor, such as Leica M. 

One trick is to reverse the lens when scanning smaller formats (35mm). That's not always easy or practical, but it gets you back in the "sweet spot" of your lens's performance.

[Einst_Stein]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

One trick is to reverse the lens when scanning smaller formats (35mm). That's not always easy or practical, but it gets you back in the "sweet spot" of your lens's performance.

Maybe, but changing to M is good enough. 

[BernardC]

3 minutes ago, Einst_Stein said:

Maybe, but changing to M is good enough. 

That's why I mentioned "practical." I use an old Hasselblad bellows to scan with my S-006, with an L39 adapter (a common enlarging lens thread). The adapter is threaded all the way though, so I can fit an small 50mm enlarging lens in reverse.

That combination is convenient for me, because it's an assembly of various bits that I happen to have around. If I was starting fresh I would use a 35mm camera and macro lens. Coincidentally, my 55mm macro lens is on loan to an artist friend who is using it to catalog his 4x5" negs. I don't have the 27mm extension tube that is required to focus 1:1 with this lens, so it wouldn't be convenient for 35mm negs, but it works great for medium and large format.

The other key notion is "good enough." Both myself and my friend use this technique for cataloging and low-quality distribution, but the negs are darkroom printed for final prints. I might be bothered to research a better solution if the scans were used for digital prints.

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[Einst_Stein]

“Good enough" for me is up to the quality of originals. My old slides are generally low quality. This lower the requirement of scan.

The later more or less improved slides and films are all 120, so using Contax 645 + Digital Back or Leice S is the natural choice. 

I did compared Apo Rodagon, C645 120mm, and C645 80mm with macro tube. C645 80mm is not the best quality choice from the pure optical point of view, but the AF makes it a lot easier.  Apo Rodagon and C645 120mm does not have AF. I might switch to C645 80mm + macro tube, either on C645 + digital back, or on Leica S3,  in the future. I don't know, maybe. 

Edited August 5, 2024 by Einst_Stein

[250swb]

On 8/4/2024 at 4:31 PM, Stuart Richardson said:

In my experience, it is as good as the Epson V850, which is a decent scanner. I did the test because my X5 broke, and I had to decide weather to use the V850 (I use it only for 8x10, typically), or the SL2. The scanner wins for ease of use and lack of flare. The camera is more flexible. I should go back and scan the file again with the X5 and see how it looks. There is more processing leeway in the SL2 too. It might win on sharpness as well. But when edited together they are very close. I did a test between my 120mm APO Macro S and 105mm Sigma 2.8 APO on the SL2 vs the V850 at 6400, so have a look. The film was 6x7 Provia.

 

 

I don't think it's as simple as that. We all kind of know the native resolution of the V700, V750, V800, V850 isn't 6400 but more importantly than that is the scanner scans medium format with much greater efficiency than 35mm, and I'm thinking most people here will be scanning 35mm. For 35mm the V850 has a native resolution of only 2300 ppi scanned at 4800 ppi (the maximum, the image doesn't get better just larger at 6400ppi) which is very poor compared with a digital camera. The reason the V850 scans medium format better is because the input size is much larger. All explained here

https://www.filmscanner.info/en/EpsonPerfectionV850Pro.html