Max Penson Posted September 2, 2007 Share #1 Posted September 2, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi guys, I've written an article about how Leica has designed the color look of the JPEG images. I also took a look at different RAW solutions to see how each render M8 colors. There are visual and LAB plot comparisons which I think could be useful for most of you RAW users. KammaGamma » Articles » Leica M8 Colors Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 2, 2007 Posted September 2, 2007 Hi Max Penson, Take a look here Leica M8 colors. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mitchell Posted September 2, 2007 Share #2 Posted September 2, 2007 Wow, this is a great article, and comparison. I just did a quick read, but I'll be back. It's kind of a bummer for me because I like C1's color best, and I'm truely lost trying to use their file structure. I seem to be very confused by side car files, etc. I love LR's organization. Maybe I'll do better with C1's version 4. At any rate, thanks so much for this article. Best, Mitchell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyspedden Posted September 2, 2007 Share #3 Posted September 2, 2007 Hi guys, I've written an article about how Leica has designed the color look of the JPEG images. I also took a look at different RAW solutions to see how each render M8 colors. There are visual and LAB plot comparisons which I think could be useful for most of you RAW users. KammaGamma » Articles » Leica M8 Colors Can you give some more detail on the gamma correction you used with ACR. I agree tht C1 resolves the best colors but it is a real pain to use. And in my opinion the new version 4.0 is not much better from a user interface perspective. Phase One could learn a lot by looking at both Lightroom and ACR. Thanks Woody Spedden Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoskeptic Posted September 2, 2007 Share #4 Posted September 2, 2007 Woody, ACR 4.1 is an improvement, especially for the M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyspedden Posted September 2, 2007 Share #5 Posted September 2, 2007 Woody, ACR 4.1 is an improvement, especially for the M8. I could not agree more. Both Lightroom and ACR 4.1 are the same raw converters and both are exceptional. I am only interested in what type of gamma correction Max used and how much that improves color fidelity. I have already tried the new Phase One C1 4.0 Beta and find that, in general, the interface is still a PITA. I have done some side by side comparisons with ACR 4.1 and I do believe the ACR still has a little too much red. However this is easily correctible and presets can be established so that you don't have to go through this time after time. Anyway, I look forward to Max's response about the gamma correction. I will still continue to use Lightroom and Photoshop as my photo managers / manipulators of choice. Woody Spedden Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted September 2, 2007 Share #6 Posted September 2, 2007 I have to agree with Max. The C1 colors are better to me, especially the skin tones. I find ACR 4.1 tends to overdo the reds and yellows, especially where there is strong sun light contrasting with shade. C1 easily lets me get it right whereas it takes much more effort wit ACR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ross Posted September 2, 2007 Share #7 Posted September 2, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Nice article Max. One finding that you confirm is that jpeg-greens are skewed to the yelow side. I was trying to find the solution to smeared grass in jpegs and found (very unscientifically) that while the yellow-greens and blue-greens are about right, the true-green was too yellow and merged with the actual yellow-green. This lowered the apparent color contrast for "grass-green" foliage and smeared the true-green/yellow- green family. Higher saturation seems to aggravate this. Finding this helped fix landscape shots. I also found a less extreme version of this in some of the early ICC profile for raw when used for landscapes. Thanks for the article. Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Penson Posted September 3, 2007 Author Share #8 Posted September 3, 2007 I could not agree more. Both Lightroom and ACR 4.1 are the same raw converters and both are exceptional. I am only interested in what type of gamma correction Max used and how much that improves color fidelity. I have already tried the new Phase One C1 4.0 Beta and find that, in general, the interface is still a PITA. I have done some side by side comparisons with ACR 4.1 and I do believe the ACR still has a little too much red. However this is easily correctible and presets can be established so that you don't have to go through this time after time. Anyway, I look forward to Max's response about the gamma correction. I will still continue to use Lightroom and Photoshop as my photo managers / manipulators of choice. Woody Spedden Woody, You can get the gamma correction here: http://kammagamma.com/articles/leicaM8/colors/ACR_gamma_correction.xmp I have made it by using the ACR result as an input and the JPEG file as an output. It will help you get closer to "Leica M8 colors" with ACR. Please note that ACR is very limited and there is no way to mimic other color schemes. I hope Adobe is working on it. And also note that this XMP file will slightly change the exposure index. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted September 3, 2007 Share #9 Posted September 3, 2007 Max, It's unclear to me whether the Leica images were captured through a Leica UV/IR filter, which reportedly corrects colours by inhibiting IR wavelengths. Would you kindly confirm whether or not a Leica UV/IR was used please? Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyspedden Posted September 3, 2007 Share #10 Posted September 3, 2007 Woody, You can get the gamma correction here: http://kammagamma.com/articles/leicaM8/colors/ACR_gamma_correction.xmp I have made it by using the ACR result as an input and the JPEG file as an output. It will help you get closer to "Leica M8 colors" with ACR. Please note that ACR is very limited and there is no way to mimic other color schemes. I hope Adobe is working on it. And also note that this XMP file will slightly change the exposure index. Thanks Max..........very helpful Woody Spedden Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted September 3, 2007 Share #11 Posted September 3, 2007 Just to balance the viewpoints, I love the C1 controls and workflow. Having used the program for at least 5? years, I find it very natural to work with. I've not yet been able to try 4.0 LE but C1's color output has always been my favorite (and not just with the M8). Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted September 3, 2007 Share #12 Posted September 3, 2007 Max, It's unclear to me whether the Leica images were captured through a Leica UV/IR filter, which reportedly corrects colours by inhibiting IR wavelengths. Would you kindly confirm whether or not a Leica UV/IR was used please? Pete. Hey Pete--the IR filters don't correct colour. Only a human being can do that (yet). The just correct the IR component of the camera's response to be more or less in-line with general expectations. BTW--Woody too--if there's something you want explained about how to be very fast and efficient with C1, just PM me. C1 is actually way easier to use efficiently, IMO, than either LR or ACR, but there are literally a couple of things you need to ignore to get to the meat of the program. I have to admit I use ACR more now that they fixed the colour, though The beta of C1 4, BTW, still hasn't worked out all the efficiency things (no easy way to copy and paste things, for instance, or drive by mouse, which is a PITA!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted September 3, 2007 Share #13 Posted September 3, 2007 Please excuse my ignorance but how do you apply the gama xml correction to ACR 4.1 to get it closer to C1? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted September 3, 2007 Share #14 Posted September 3, 2007 Hey Pete--the IR filters don't correct colour. Only a human being can do that (yet). The just correct the IR component of the camera's response to be more or less in-line with general expectations... Thanks, Jamie, I understand that and far be it from me to question someone with your coloour expertise but I recall a number of posts that stated that they believed that the presence of IR wavelengths had affected colours other than black to magenta in jpeg and raw captures, IIRC yellower greens in particular. My point is that if the images were recorded without a UV/IR filter then the colours will be different from those recorded with a filter so the comparison with colours produced by other cameras may be flawed. Just a thought. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted September 4, 2007 Share #15 Posted September 4, 2007 Max, Can you tell me how to use the gama in ACR to match (or closely match) the C1 look? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted September 4, 2007 Share #16 Posted September 4, 2007 Thanks, Jamie, I understand that and far be it from me to question someone with your coloour expertise but I recall a number of posts that stated that they believed that the presence of IR wavelengths had affected colours other than black to magenta in jpeg and raw captures, IIRC yellower greens in particular. My point is that if the images were recorded without a UV/IR filter then the colours will be different from those recorded with a filter so the comparison with colours produced by other cameras may be flawed. Just a thought. Pete. Oh, Pete--I was probably being a bit elliptical. I'm not trying to say the filters don't help the colour rendition for the M8. They usually do. My specific point was that, even once the extra IR response is taken out of the equation with the filters, you still have a broad wealth of colour interpretation left... not something called "correct" colour Different RAW converters, different profiles, different DNG matrix tweaks by Leica or Adobe--all of those things, let alone white balance!--can affect the colour. So machines, or IR filters, never actually colour correct per se. Only people can do that, because we're the ones that care about things like flesh tones that make people look pleasantly alive The filters, do, however, do a bang-up job of lessening the effects of extra IR, whatever they may be (and of course, the filters themselves can add extra cyan on very wide angle lenses... see what I mean about "correct"?)... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Penson Posted September 4, 2007 Author Share #17 Posted September 4, 2007 Max, Can you tell me how to use the gama in ACR to match (or closely match) the C1 look? Save the XMP file somewhere, within ACR click the right menu marker that opens all the options. Click load settings and load the XMP file. That's it... Max, It's unclear to me whether the Leica images were captured through a Leica UV/IR filter, which reportedly corrects colours by inhibiting IR wavelengths. Would you kindly confirm whether or not a Leica UV/IR was used please? Pete. No, I was not using UV/IR filter. It is still not clear what leica is doing to the colors when the UV/IR menu option is being set. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted September 4, 2007 Share #18 Posted September 4, 2007 Maybe its off topic but for my taste I lately get the best results with solky pix regarding color Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted September 4, 2007 Share #19 Posted September 4, 2007 Max, I am running on a Mac. ACR 4,1 is not available as a stand-alone application but is a plugin to either LR or CS3. I am not sure how one changes the ACR and loads the xmp file. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 4, 2007 Share #20 Posted September 4, 2007 ...I'm not trying to say the filters don't help the colour rendition for the M8... Do you mean that IR-cut filters don't oversaturate greens in grass and foliage? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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