Pixii - complementary or competition? [Merged]

[loloboubou1]

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In hurry to hear about Pixii plus APORIA, plus MATE ...

 

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[ramarren]

21 hours ago, pippy said:

Do people here think that having an APS-C sensor is a problem for Pixii? Not having read all 17 pages it could well be the case that I might have missed something about this aspect along the way.

Philip.

I'm not people; I'm me, one individual. 

I chose to move from FF (Leica M-P 240 or SL) to APS-C (Leica CL) for the technical advantage it offers me. I do a lot of negative copying (since I still shoot a lot of film), mostly 35mm and Minox subminiature format. To capture FF negatives on a FF sensor requires a 1:1 macro capability, to capture 8x11mm negatives requires about 3.2:1 macro capability with a FF sensor. To do the same job with an APS-C sensor requires 1:2 and 1.6:1 macro capabilities respectively ... much less lens extension required, and a more compact and stable copy stand to do the job as well. Since the CL has the same pixel resolution as both the M-P 240 and SL, and I don't need the additional sensitivity that the larger sensor implies very much if at all, the format downsizing I did works out to be a better match for my uses. For most average picture taking, the APS-C format paired with appropriate focal lengths (10, 21, 28, 35, 50 mm) is virtually indistinguishable from FF paired with the equivalent FOV focal lengths (16, 24, 35, 50, 75, 90 mm) and the net result of the APS-C move is a more compact kit with more useful DoF because the lenses needed are generally smaller in size. 

Obviously, a lot of folks seem to want the FF format. Pixii is based on a fully electronic shutter sensor, and such sensors at the present moment work better in smaller than FF sizes (small sensors, FourThirds format sensors, APS-C format sensors) than than do on the FF sensors I've had, in my experience. When a FF sensor with similar eshutter performance becomes available, Pixii SAS could incorporate that into the body with some reengineering required, but of course to maintain the accuracy of focus for faster lenses, they'll also want to increase the effective rangefinder baseline to match it for the longer focal lengths required. 

So it's a compromise, a trade off, just like it always is with any camera. I suspect that if you fit a good normal lens to the Pixii and a good normal lens to a Leica M10 and go out making good photos with good exposure settings that are well focused, you'd have some difficulty telling them apart. 

The biggest problem is that camera marketing has biased a lot of potential purchasers against an APS-C sensor for reasons that aren't entirely justified unless you already happen to have all the right, expensive lenses for a FF sensor already at hand. I happen to have accreted lenses appropriate to both size sensors over the years, and have never been so locked into always having the biggest, fastest, whatever lens around, so to me it's a non-issue.  

G

[ramarren]

3 hours ago, loloboubou1 said:

In hurry to hear about Pixii plus APORIA, plus MATE ...

 

Getting there at my measured pace. Outside of my camera and photography endeavors, I've also been really really busy the past week or three with my other projects. Now that the long hassle with the United Parcel Sequestering jerks is over, I can start to learn and study the Pixii properly, start making photographs with it.

First order of business is to test all my lenses and adapter plates on the Pixii body and see what the situation is. 

- The viewfinder is delightful, actually, and is better than the M4-2 viewfinder in providing a bit more eye relief for my glasses use. Clear and bright optics, very clear frame lines, a bright and contrasty rangefinder window. The range of Field of View options suits most of my needs well. I can see very well with it in sunlight; for my usual use of wide (24 to 28mm), normal (35mm), and short tele (50mm) lenses, it works nicely with no accessory finder needed. 

- I've tested all my lenses with respect to their fit on the body and compatibility with the rangefinder.

• None of my lenses occludes the lens release latch. 
• HyperWide 10/5.6 - occludes most of the RF window but doesn't use the RF, requires Voigtländer 15mm viewfinder
• Color Skopar 21/3.5, 28/3.5, 50/2.5 - no occlusion (short hoods); 21mm view fits with Ricoh or Voigtländer 28mm accessory viewfinder
• Aporia 24/2 - no occlusion; standard viewfinder fine, Voigtländer 35mm viewfinder a little nicer.
• Summilux 35/1.4 (1972) - lens hood is relieved so while it occludes some of the view, you can see around that to focus
• Pentax-L 43/1.9 Special - no occlusion
• Summicron-M 50/2 - with relieved fixed hood, small occlusion lower left corner of RF; with built-in hood, no occlusion
• Summarit-M 75/2.4 - with fixed hood, small occlusion lower left corner of RF; need viewfinder
• M-Rokkor 90/4 - small occlusion with rubber lens hood, none with metal hood; need viewfinder
• Hektor 135/4.5 - no occlusion without hood, small occlusion with lens hood fitted; need viewfinder

- A Really Right Stuff B9E camera plate fits without occluding access to the battery, but shifts the camera 12mm to the left of the optical center line on the tripod. A Peak Design standard camera plate fits perfectly centered but requires removal to change the battery.

- Oh yes, a set of Peak Design anchors fit nicely and allow me to use either my PD Leash or Slide Lite straps. The strap eyelets are displaced slightly forwards from the body centerline so that the camera tends to hang comfortably upright with 10mm to 50mm lenses when worn cross-body with a strap. Longer/heavier lenses will make it tip down somewhat.

More as it comes...  

G

[pippy]

1 hour ago, ramarren said:

I'm not people; I'm me, one individual............

G

Thanks very much for the detailed and thoughtful reply.

I do hope you realise that my question wasn't directed towards yourself - nor any other individual - but was asked through my surprise that some folks might have singled-out the crop-sensor as being a problem with the camera in question. In common with many members here my first digi-M body was an M8.2 which, of course, features a crop-sensor. I liked the camera very much; the quality if images it could produce was wonderful. It is a model which still has an enthusiastic number of supporters to this day - and rightly so.

We will all select cameras based on our needs and preferences. I fully understand why you have gone for the Pixii; it fulfills your requirements and is clearly an excellent choice for yourself. I have no doubt you will be able to use it to make wonderful photographs.

My own preferences for 'personal' shooting are, it would seem, very different from yours. For me the M-D Typ-262 is as near-perfect a camera as I'm likely to find but that doesn't mean I'm not appreciative of the market having a wide range of options which will suit others; the M-D (as you know well) is hardly an ideal camera in the opinion of the vast majority of photographers...

Philip.

Edited April 21, 2022 by pippy

[ramarren]

Oh yes: I'll try out the MATE with the Pixii today.

Physically, without the lens hood there is no RF occlusion. With the lens hood, it's like the Summilux 35: the hood cuts a swath across the center of the RF patch, but you can see above and below it to focus. 

The lens intrudes into the lower right of the viewfinder optical view by a bit, just like the 75, 90, and 135 do. 

Overall: Switching frame lines to match focal length is a little tedious ... not a huge problem, but it would be nicer if the Pixii lens mount had the sensor to trigger the right frame lines per M lens. It would also be nicer if the menu system had ISO and Lens parameters on the same, top page, since those are the two things that I as a user am going to change via the menu on a regular basis. Also, the back selector dial that you use to change menu selections is a little less precise in its operation than I'd like; it's usable as is, but sometimes ignores the change in position for a click or two. 

And since I know the Pixii is a wholly electronic shutter, I'd love to turn the simulated shutter sound off completely. It just distracts me...

G

[ramarren]

16 minutes ago, pippy said:

Thanks very much for the detailed and thoughtful reply.

I do hope you realise that my question wasn't directed towards yourself - nor any other individual - but was asked through my surprise that some folks might have singled-out the crop-sensor as being a problem with the camera in question. In common with many members here my first digi-M body was an M8.2 which, of course, features a crop-sensor. I liked the camera very much; the quality if images it could produce was wonderful. It is a model which still has an enthusiastic number of supporters to this day - and rightly so.

We will all select cameras based on our needs and preferences. I fully understand why you have gone for the Pixii; it fulfills your requirements and is clearly an excellent choice for yourself. I have no doubt you will be able to use it to make wonderful photographs.

My own preferences for 'personal' shooting are, it would seem, very different from yours. For me the M-D Typ-262 is as near-perfect a camera as I'm likely to find but that doesn't mean I'm not appreciative of the market having a wide range of options which will suit others; the M-D (as you know well) is hardly an ideal camera in the opinion of the vast majority of photographers...

Philip.

All understood, and thank you for acknowledging my reply.  

I agree that the M-D typ 262 is a nearly perfect Leica M ... I should never have sold the one I had. I simply found that, after I bought the CL body, it sat on the shelf an awful lot of the time because at that time my main lens kit was Leica R, not Leica M, and of course the M-D doesn't allow any form of focusing other than scale with the Leica R lenses. Over time, I've migrated my lens kit to the smaller, lighter M-mount lenses such that now most of what I use in R lenses is really for macro work and little else, and that's all really the domain of a TTL camera not an RF, so the need that was pressing me five-six years ago is no longer there.

Having two cameras with the same format rather than two cameras with different formats simplifies my lens kit/choices should I be carrying both bodies. And that's how I've arrived at today, with Pixii and CL. 

I've spent a few hours this morning exploring lenses and controls on the Pixii. Can't wait to get out and do some shooting with it now ... the measure of any camera, in my hands, is what photos it inspires me to try for...

G

[loloboubou1]

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20 minutes ago, ramarren said:

Overall: Switching frame lines to match focal length is a little tedious ... not a huge problem, but it would be nicer if the Pixii lens mount had the sensor to trigger the right frame lines per M lens. It would also be nicer if the menu system had ISO and Lens parameters on the same, top page, since those are the two things that I as a user am going to change via the menu on a regular basis. Also, the back selector dial that you use to change menu selections is a little less precise in its operation than I'd like; it's usable as is, but sometimes ignores the change in position for a click or two. 

And since I know the Pixii is a wholly electronic shutter, I'd love to turn the simulated shutter sound off completely. It just distracts me...

G

Send your suggestions for improvement to David. He is very attentive. I had to suggest the idea of the double click (DNG Mono / Bayer) on the menu button on a Wednesday, on Friday it was implemented on a development firmware!

[raizans]

1 hour ago, ramarren said:

- The viewfinder is delightful, actually, and is better than the M4-2 viewfinder in providing a bit more eye relief for my glasses use. Clear and bright optics, very clear frame lines, a bright and contrasty rangefinder window. The range of Field of View options suits most of my needs well. I can see very well with it in sunlight; for my usual use of wide (24 to 28mm), normal (35mm), and short tele (50mm) lenses, it works nicely with no accessory finder needed. 

Great news! If you have any experience with the film CL, would you say the viewfinder image and rangefinder patch are a little smaller than the M4-2, but doesn't present any practical challenges?

[ramarren]

3 hours ago, raizans said:

Great news! If you have any experience with the film CL, would you say the viewfinder image and rangefinder patch are a little smaller than the M4-2, but doesn't present any practical challenges?

The film CL was one of my favorite film cameras for years ... In the end, I had three of them over the course of about 35 years.  It's a more compact and lighter camera than the M4-2, where the Pixii is remarkably similar to the M4-2 overall. 

The film CL viewfinder is a little smaller and tighter than the M4-2 viewfinder. It does not have as many features or frame lines, basically 40/50/90 mm frame lines compared to the M4-2 35/50/90/135 frame lines. To my eye, the Pixii viewfinder is quite comparable to the film CL viewfinder, it covers a couple more FoV possibilities over a slightly shorter range and provides a bit more eye relief, is likely slightly brighter too. 

I don't find anything challenging about the Pixii viewfinder at all, just like I never found anything challenging about the CL viewfinder. For focal lengths and framing options beyond the capabilities of the built-in viewfinder optics, I simply attach an external viewfinder for framing purposes. It's not that difficult to learn how to see and estimate anyway if you don't have any of those, as the sensible range of focal lengths for an RF camera viewfinder is normally in the 28 to 100mm equivalent FF range. There have only been a few optical RF cameras with interchangeable lenses that covered a substantially greater range. 

(Note: Compared to my 'beloved' Kodak Retina IIc camera, the Pixii viewfinder is magnificently much brighter, larger, clearer and has more eye relief ... It's much easier to see through and has more options in-camera without use of accessory finders than the Retina IIc has options or lenses available.  )

G

[ramarren]

4 hours ago, loloboubou1 said:

Send your suggestions for improvement to David. He is very attentive. I had to suggest the idea of the double click (DNG Mono / Bayer) on the menu button on a Wednesday, on Friday it was implemented on a development firmware!

Oh yes, I will. David and I have a good ongoing dialog at this point. 

G

[ramarren]

A few Pixii photographs while snapping around during breakfast at the cafe this morning. All with the SMC-Pentax-L 43mm f/1.9 Special, minimal processing from DNG files. 

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Rendered in Lightroom Classic. I must say that I think skin tones look very good, and the colors of the Parking sign are right on too. Looks like I picked up a bit of fluff on the sensor ... I'll blow it out now as I'm going for a walk with the camera.  

G

[loloboubou1]

Hello Ramaren 

Nice pics !

Wich LUT are you using (for me Standard S0 for landscapes & portrait PO for skin)

I can't wait to know your opinion on the native monochrom mode. It offers incredible processing potential with camera raw. it is much better than the software transformations in black and white with LR or PS or Silver Effects, filmpacks ...It is not often referred to in this forum but I have 2 cameras for the price of one. (I am reselling my M Monochrom 1)

Edited April 21, 2022 by loloboubou1

[loloboubou1]

 

Some récent examples (JPEG...)

From DNG / LUT Portrait P0: Recent works with portraits of US writers like Paula Hawkins (the girl on the train) and Craig Johnson or Scottish (Irvine Welsh: Mister "Trainspotting" himself). These 4 examples having been taken in very bad light conditions.

 

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From DNG B&W native mode from yesterday to show an example of a traditional French bar 😉

[ramarren]

More testing and evaluation stuff.

On yesterday's walk, I decided to take the Pixii fitted with the MS Optics Aporia 24mm f/2 lens. 

In the course of walking yesterday, the Pixii displayed "Fault" a few times and required powering off, then on again, to clear it. I was rather capriciously flipping around between various menu settings as I walked and I might have also inadvertently knocked the main time wheel (on top) off the Auto setting or even between setting clicks. The A-Lock function might prove useful to prevent this for me for this kind of casual walking about situation. 

The various in-viewfinder displays affect me the same way they do for most cameras .. I dislike them. I mostly like using the aperture priority automation, controlling exposure with the EV compensation, but I'd rather set my EV Compensation before making an exposure as I look at a scene and make a tweak one way or another. 

I flipped back and forth between the Bayer and Monochrome modes a few times. I think that doing that is when I saw the Fault notice come up, primarily, and that's also when my exposure settings seemed to go off the rails most of the time. Certainly, more investigation and evaluation is needed. 

I set the lens to f/4 for my walk and shot still life scenes, trees, and my usual oddities of found compositions. One thing I'm happy to report is that my Aporia 24mm focusing cam seems to be right on the money: Very good sharpness for every photo I made that I'd focused. It's the first time I've used this lens on an RF body and had heard various folks reporting some cam placement issues—happy to say it doesn't seem to be an issue with my lens.

However, looking at my exposures, it seems the Aporia 24/2 is not as good an optical match to the Pixii sensor as it is to the Leica CL sensor. At f/4, I expect a little corner and edge fall-off to occur, but on the Pixii sensor I see a good deal of color shifting as well as much more light fall-off than I see with the CL. The on-center sharpness is excellent, and likely would be at f/5.6-f/8 as well. 

Here's a look at a simple snap of the clouds overhead, Bayer setting with standard color space, no processing on the image: 

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It's a mostly monochromatic image anyway, but you can see the magenta-cyan color shifting from center to edge easily. Slightly more successful, but the color shifting does intrude, is this photo of the pizza shop's table umbrella:

 

Switching to Monochrome mode, I must have inadvertently also switched the ISO setting and/or knocked the time control dial to a manual setting... Both of these were about 1-2 stops over-exposed. I kinda like the rough, hyper-contrasty rendering I was able to eke out of them, but I need to experiment with the Monochrome mode a lot more before I can rely upon it. 

 

All in all, I'd say the Aporia 24 is best suited to the CL or M4-2 at this point, and not a good choice on the Pixii. 

Another camera behavior I need to get more used to is the feel of the shutter button. It's a very light, somewhat numb feel ... The camera makes a quick noise simulating a shutter release which I sometimes hear and sometimes not, it also seems to make a single 'tick' with speeds faster than 1/30 second and a double 'tick ... wait a tenth of a second ... tick' for anything slower. The real problem is that with such a silent eshutter, the question of when the exposure has been made is a bit tricky. The tick noise doesn't really help in moments of high ambient noise (it's too quiet) and without a display LCD the only way to be sure you've made an exposure is to look at the exposure count on the top LCD. I'm pretty sure this is just a matter of learning and accommodation. 

Today I'll either take the camera out for a walk with my loaned-for-evaluation MATE or the Summilux 35. More when...

G

[pop]

Do not, under any circumstances, use ISO settings lower than 160. 100 and 80 can be selected but the light meter appears to be way off for those speeds.

The FAULT usually occurs for a racing situation with the memory; it's not likely that it has anything to do with what you did. David is still working on that one.

[loloboubou1]

16 hours ago, ramarren said:

Another camera behavior I need to get more used to is the feel of the shutter button. It's a very light, somewhat numb feel ... The camera makes a quick noise simulating a shutter release which I sometimes hear and sometimes not, it also seems to make a single 'tick' with speeds faster than 1/30 second and a double 'tick ... wait a tenth of a second ... tick' for anything slower. The real problem is that with such a silent eshutter, the question of when the exposure has been made is a bit tricky. The tick noise doesn't really help in moments of high ambient noise (it's too quiet) and without a display LCD the only way to be sure you've made an exposure is to look at the exposure count on the top LCD. I'm pretty sure this is just a matter of learning and accommodation. 

 

G

Another visual way to verify that the photo is taken in a noisy context: the frame flashes in the viewfinder

Waiting for the Pixii / MATE review 😉.  have a nice walk

 

[Viv]

On 4/20/2022 at 11:01 PM, ramarren said:

My Pixii was finally released from the black hole of UPS. 

Unboxing: 

Fit lens, make first exposure: 

20 second review: Nice feel, nice weight. Pentax 43mm f/1.9 Special does not occlude rangefinder. Controls simple and easy to understand. Viewfinder is very good quality optics, I can see the whole optical field with my glasses on. Frame lines are clear and clean. Crisp, clean simple top displays. 

More to report but later. Bicycle ride first. 

G

Very useful information for a prospective buyer like me. Thank you.

[pop]

18 hours ago, ramarren said:

the question of when the exposure has been made

I agree. However, observing the frame lines in the viewfinder may help. They flicker shortly when you take an exposure.

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[ramarren]

12 hours ago, pop said:

I agree. However, observing the frame lines in the viewfinder may help. They flicker shortly when you take an exposure.

Yes they do, and it's very visible indoors or outdoors when light levels are low. However, for my eyes, when I'm in strong sunlight the flicker is mostly invisible.

[ramarren]

More Pixii lens testing... 

Based on some discussion on one of the forae and a mention, I became interested in the Leica Tri-Elmar-M 28-35-50mm f/4 ASPH, affectionately called the MATE (for "Medium Angle Tele-Elmar"). It's in interesting lens: unlike its sibling the 16-18-21mm version ("WATE"), which is a true zoom lens, the MATE is not a zoom ... It's a clever optical design that moves lens elements internally to provide three discrete focal lengths, in order on the focal length ring 35 > 50 > 28 mm. 

The lens's bayonet mount has a little tab that works on a Leica M to shift the frame lines between the 35mm, 50mm, and 28mm frame sets ... Of course, on the Pixii, this is ignored since you set the frame lines (and focal length setting in the EXIF) manually via the menu. 

Anyway, I was interested to see whether this "three in one" lens would prove convenient and perform well enough for me to consider it as a useful tool when I want to minimize the number of discrete pieces of gear I want to carry. The focal length choices on an APS-C sensor seem ideal for the Pixii, using three of the four frame line sets available. I was also interested to explore further the Pixii monochrome raw mode and see how well that worked and how manipulable the MONO-DNG files were. So I set Pixii to MONO, ISO to 200, aperture to f/5.6, and speed to AUTO. All frame by frame exposure tailoring for this set of photos was made with EV Compensation.

Here are the FOV choices that the lens provides in a triptych:

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28-35-50 FoV Triptych MATE

And some photos. I've marked the focal lengths in the image title for each:

28 - Roots & Leaves

28 - Pickets

50 - Bus Stop

 

50 - Ground Cover

35 - Fence

35 - Tree, Tree
 

28 - Patterns in Twigs

35 - Tree & Stucco Wall

35 - Security Camera In Use

35 - Ornamentation & Tree

Okay.

The MATE performs well, and if you find yourself always using these three focal lengths, AND can get along with an f/4 lens, it could well be the one and only lens you need. The downsides, for me, are that it's a bit bulky (like most "normal zoom" lenses), and a bit expensive. 

Oh yes: its lens hood does get in the way of the rangefinder window. You *can* see around it to focus, but I found it too annoying and took the hood off. I guess I naturally don't frame my shots in such a way that light flares into the field of view very strongly because I didn't see any flare degradation in this set of photos.

The Pixii's monochrome mode, I have to say, proves quite nice. Whether it's as good as a dedicated monochrome sensor or not at providing higher resolution/higher ISO etc, ... eh? I cannot say from this test. But it proves to give very editable DNG files, a nice grayscale palette, and they're easy to render in Lightroom Classic. 

Enjoy! G