PATT 8665

[jerzy]

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...and to the subject of die cast # - sometimes an additional engraving may be found there, this is example of Betriebskamera 063. If this would be regular production camera serial number would be around 50x xxx.

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Betr.-K engraving differs among Betribeskameras, some of them have full "Betriebskamera" engraved

[Anbaric]

On 9/13/2021 at 10:10 PM, frame-it said:

i wonder which lenses they used from way up in the sky ? 135mm must have been the longest ?

At least one application didn't require long lenses - Leicas were used to photograph onboard radar screens during missions:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/318510-leica-cameras-used-by-british-forces-in-second-world-war/

 

[Fbsgfoto]

thanks a lot for sharing your vast knlodge. I always learn new things here. So the conclusion is that was repaired/upgraded following Leica procedures, by Leica I suppose. But as there is no records on Leica about its purchase or repair, that's what they told me.  The only way to know more about this post war military Leica will be finding any Royal Navy document ..... I'll keep on working. Thanks to everyone had helped me, I do really appreciate your effort.

[willeica]

3 hours ago, Fbsgfoto said:

thanks a lot for sharing your vast knlodge. I always learn new things here. So the conclusion is that was repaired/upgraded following Leica procedures, by Leica I suppose. But as there is no records on Leica about its purchase or repair, that's what they told me.  The only way to know more about this post war military Leica will be finding any Royal Navy document ..... I'll keep on working. Thanks to everyone had helped me, I do really appreciate your effort.

This is postwar and probably came back from German in military hands. If you email info@leica-camera.com you should be able to get details of the original issue of the camera. You should also ask them about the upgrade from IIIc to IIIf under the same serial number. They wont have details of the work done, but they will know when the camera went back to Wetzlar. When you have done that I will see what I can do via PCCGB about British records. I must warn though that many of the occupation period 'handovers' of Leica cameras are not that well recorded.

William 

[Fbsgfoto]

4 hours ago, willeica said:

This is postwar and probably came back from German in military hands. If you email info@leica-camera.com you should be able to get details of the original issue of the camera. You should also ask them about the upgrade from IIIc to IIIf under the same serial number. They wont have details of the work done, but they will know when the camera went back to Wetzlar. When you have done that I will see what I can do via PCCGB about British records. I must warn though that many of the occupation period 'handovers' of Leica cameras are not that well recorded.

William 

I did some time ago, firstly they answered me this: 

Many thanks for your request.

In our old delivery books there are no entries for the serial numbers you mentioned, nor are there any entries in the old repair or maintenance books.

The years of construction of the camera / lenses you specify correspond to our own lists.

The camera is certainly not a fake, but I have no information about the engraving. This was certainly not done in our workshop.

 

and later added this: 

the documents are old handwritten books that are digitized. Some of the entries are illegible or nonexistent.

From the times of 1939-1945, in some cases also in 1946 and 1947, entries are missing for known reasons.

Certain data from the war period or shortly thereafter are no longer available.

For most old cameras, only the serial number and the date are given in the delivery books, the delivery location is often not specified.

Since there are no entries for this camera, I cannot name a delivery location, I regret.

 

So every the very only way to know something more may depend on PCCGB.

 

Thanks for all

[willeica]

28 minutes ago, Fbsgfoto said:

I did some time ago, firstly they answered me this: 

Many thanks for your request.

In our old delivery books there are no entries for the serial numbers you mentioned, nor are there any entries in the old repair or maintenance books.

The years of construction of the camera / lenses you specify correspond to our own lists.

The camera is certainly not a fake, but I have no information about the engraving. This was certainly not done in our workshop.

 

and later added this: 

the documents are old handwritten books that are digitized. Some of the entries are illegible or nonexistent.

From the times of 1939-1945, in some cases also in 1946 and 1947, entries are missing for known reasons.

Certain data from the war period or shortly thereafter are no longer available.

For most old cameras, only the serial number and the date are given in the delivery books, the delivery location is often not specified.

Since there are no entries for this camera, I cannot name a delivery location, I regret.

 

So every the very only way to know something more may depend on PCCGB.

 

Thanks for all

Whatever about the original issue, which may have involved a direct transaction with British or US military and not have involved a Leica dealer, this camera was returned to Wetzlar after 1950/51 for upgrade work. I have seen examples where this happened many years later. The Leica Archives do have details about such returns and I have got them for some of my cameras. These details may not, however, be in the 'look up system' which they are using now and which, as far as I know, only covers initial delivery.

I will get on to my friends in PCCGB to see if any of the relevant records still exist in the UK..

William 

[pippy]

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On 9/12/2021 at 8:20 PM, PG Black nickel said:

It is indeed a beautiful Zorki 2 !!

Not that I suppose it's of much interest to anyone any more (apart from me......) but the camera in the op is actually a curiosity in its own right.

It couldn't possibly be a Zorki 2. For one thing the Z-2 had a new-style of two part shutter-speed dial (cental spindle graven with an index mark and outer selection disc) which allowed for speeds to be set either before or after the film was advanced. Secondly the Z-2 used the 'Decorative Rim' style of body first seen on the Zorki 1 (C) of 1951. Lastly the Z-2, of course, was fitted with a Contax II / Kiev II style self timer complete with long lever.

The 'non-rangefinder' part might possibly be that of an earlier Zorki 1 but, as that would have required someone to match-up 'bits' from a Zorki and a FED 1, my guess is that the whole thing is a FED 1. Even then, however, it's a 'bitsa' camera. That stye of shutter release (with the dished / locking collar) wasn't introduced until the very last iteration of the FED 1 (F) and my guess is that the 'main part' of the camera is more likely to be a FED 1 (G). These became available in 1953.

The r/f housing, OTOH, has - when seen in 'plan' view - the semi-circular shape of the pre-war FED 1 (A) and (B) models which is similar to the shape of the housing of the early Leica II cameras. After the introduction of the FED 1 (C) in 1937 the housing acquired the more angular style which resembled that of the later Leica II and those models which came after.

All in all a not inconsiderable effort to bamboozle some (unlucky?) prospective customer...

Philip.

Edited November 25, 2021 by pippy

[willeica]

We are having a Zoom on RAF cameras this coming Sunday, so the military experts should be on. I will ask about British records for cameras with PATT markings.

William 

[PG Black nickel]

Yes of course Philip, you're right it's certainly not a Zorki 2 and I hope I'm not saying another silly thing; I think they've gone for a base of this type of black Zorki 1 and after a bit of sanding down of the markings, you'll notice the skill of the craftsman who has faithfully reproduced the Leica lettering. Bravo the artist!

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[pippy]

On 11/26/2021 at 3:41 PM, PG Black nickel said:

Yes of course Philip, you're right it's certainly not a Zorki 2 and I hope I'm not saying another silly thing; I think they've gone for a base of this type of black Zorki 1 and after a bit of sanding down of the markings, you'll notice the skill of the craftsman who has faithfully reproduced the Leica lettering. Bravo the artist!...

I hope my comments didn't come across as being critical, PG, as such was not my intention and there was nothing silly about your earlier post I assure you. Apologies if my post was misunderstood.

I agree that the engraving / painting etc. on the camera in the OP has been done well. As far as the camera goes, however, the Zorki you illustrate still can't be the base model;

If you look at the main body of the 'black' Zorki in the photograph which you have posted you will see that there is, 'framing' (if you like) the leatherette, a smooth, dark, raised band which separates the body-shell from both the top- and base-plates and circles around the body's lens flange. This was a feature seen on all Zorki 1 models post the Z-1 (C) in 1951. The body in the OP has no such rim. It could be a Model (A) or (B) Z-1 but (as mentioned in my earlier post) there are still things which don't fit.

I'll try to illustrate why with a few snaps of some of my own things.

First-off by way of illustrating the differences mentioned in post #27 here, on the left, is a Zorki-2. Note the raised decorative trim, the Contax / Kiev style self-timer and (if you do the double-click thing with the magnifying glass) if you look closely you will see the concentric shutter-speed dial with index-mark on the central-spindle. Also the film advance/rewind lever has disappeared! The mechanism to change from one to the other is now controlled from the rotating collar which surrounds the shutter-release button;

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Next up here are some FED cameras showing several features seen on the camera in the OP......but not featured all at the same time on any one model of FED! The two most relevant bodies are front-centre and left-hand-side.

Front-centre is a 1936 FED 1 (B) and has the 'semi-circular' shape of housing directly underneath the speed dial as per the camera in the OP;

The shape was last used on this model before being revised for the 1 Model (C) in 1937 (mirroring Leica's own shape-change from semi-circular as seen on the early Leica II examples) to a more angular style. The new shape can be seen on each of the other cameras. These three are, left-to-right, Model (G); Model (F) and Model (D).

The shutter-release buttons of the cameras at both sides have a dished-collar but it is the one on the left which is the same style as that seen in the OP. If you look closely you will see an 'L' shaped slot / aperture cut from the front of the collar. This was to allow the shutter-button to act as a shutter-lock when the 'B' setting was selected. As the button was depressed it was given a twist counter-clockwise which would lock the button down until such time as a clockwise twist would release the button and the second blind would end the exposure.

Hence my thought that the OP's camera might be a pre-war Model (B) r/f housing but fitted to a much later ('55?) Model (G) 'chassis'.

It could also be, of course, that there is some nefarious ne'er do well's who are stamping-out brand-new r/f shells for the counterfeit market; original pre-war FEDs are fairly scarce and, of course, have a certain monetary value in themselves - although only the VERY earliest examples can rival the desirability of early Leicas.

Lastly - and just as a bit of fun - something unusual. The Zorki posted by PG Black Nickel is an oddity in that the factory never produced cameras in black finish. There were a handful of pre-war FEDs made in black but the chances of seeing a genuine one are practically nil. Similarly, over in the Ukraine, Kiev were busy churning out their copies of the pre-war Contax II and Contax III cameras also uniquely in silver-chrome finish; never once making a black example.

So here's a photo of my one............

Philip.

Edited November 27, 2021 by pippy

[willeica]

I had forgotten about the British Intelligence report on the Leica operation at Wetzlar in late 1946. It is said that this eventually led to the British Reid Leica copy of the 1950s.

https://www.macfilos.com/2018/04/12/2018-4-7-the-leica-camera-in-1946-report-by-british-inspectors/

https://www.macfilos.com/2018/04/06/2018-4-6-the-leica-camera-report-on-the-factory-by-british-inspectors-in-1946/

This camera is from 1946/47 and may have come back as a sample and ended up with British Intelligence, an Armed Service or in a Ministry. It would have returned to Wetzlar later, after 1950/51, for upgrade to a IIIf BD. 

I discussed this earlier today with some experts from the Photographic Collectors Club of Great Britain (PCCGB) who were having a talk on RAF reconnaissance cameras . The general feeling was that this was the most likely route that the camera took. It would also explain why there is no Leitz delivery record for this camera.

William 

 

[willeica]

4 hours ago, willeica said:

I had forgotten about the British Intelligence report on the Leica operation at Wetzlar in late 1946. It is said that this eventually led to the British Reid Leica copy of the 1950s.

https://www.macfilos.com/2018/04/12/2018-4-7-the-leica-camera-in-1946-report-by-british-inspectors/

https://www.macfilos.com/2018/04/06/2018-4-6-the-leica-camera-report-on-the-factory-by-british-inspectors-in-1946/

This camera is from 1946/47 and may have come back as a sample and ended up with British Intelligence, an Armed Service or in a Ministry. It would have returned to Wetzlar later, after 1950/51, for upgrade to a IIIf BD. 

I discussed this earlier today with some experts from the Photographic Collectors Club of Great Britain (PCCGB) who were having a talk on RAF reconnaissance cameras . The general feeling was that this was the most likely route that the camera took. It would also explain why there is no Leitz delivery record for this camera.

William 

 

I should also have added that the IIIf top plate looks like a replacement one as the sync numbers are stamped rather than added on with a screw-on plate. That would mean that the PAAT and SN numbers would have had to be stamped/engraved. See attached photos showing the Black Dials for converted cameras 1. IIIc to IIIf BD and 2. Ic to IIf BD. 

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This means that in the case of the PATT camera either a) it was originally a Ic, but the PATT would have had to be re-engraved or stamped or (b) if it was a IIIc it might have got a new top plate and PATT would still have had to be re-engraved or stamped.

I hope that the above is not too confusing. Jerzy might like to comment.

William

[Fbsgfoto]

Wow I am really shocked with all these information, I really really really thank you that huge effort to resolve this "little" mystery, well all it can be solved. Thanks a lot. 

[jerzy]

Am 28.11.2021 um 20:41 schrieb willeica:

This means that in the case of the PATT camera either a) it was originally a Ic, but the PATT would have had to be re-engraved or stamped or (b) if it was a IIIc it might have got a new top plate and PATT would still have had to be re-engraved or stamped.

William, I suppose the second is true. Acc to Hahne  429707 was produced as IIIc,  Ic and IIc have SNs higher. Conversion was done in 1954 or later, there are 2 details supporting this: DBP, etc in capital letters and self timer. Many of postwar IIIc converted to IIIf have a plate with contact numbers screwed on on the original top cover, however replacing top cover during conversion was offered at extra charge (18DM, compared to 288DM price of conversion).  And this is what was with 429707. On the contrary, majority of wartime IIIc converted to IIIf have plate screwed on, replacement of top cover during conversion (for wartime IIIc) was not offered by Leitz. Reason was that die cast of wartime and postwar differ siginificantly, postwar top cover does not fit wartime die cast. Saying that, I am aware about few examples of wartime IIIc/f with postwar top cover - in every case majority of camera componenets inside, including die cast, have been renewed. I suppose that this kind of conversion was affered at special quoting.

[willeica]

49 minutes ago, jerzy said:

William, I suppose the second is true. Acc to Hahne  429707 was produced as IIIc,  Ic and IIc have SNs higher. Conversion was done in 1954 or later, there are 2 details supporting this: DBP, etc in capital letters and self timer. Many of postwar IIIc converted to IIIf have a plate with contact numbers screwed on on the original top cover, however replacing top cover during conversion was offered at extra charge (18DM, compared to 288DM price of conversion).  And this is what was with 429707. On the contrary, majority of wartime IIIc converted to IIIf have plate screwed on, replacement of top cover during conversion (for wartime IIIc) was not offered by Leitz. Reason was that die cast of wartime and postwar differ siginificantly, postwar top cover does not fit wartime die cast. Saying that, I am aware about few examples of wartime IIIc/f with postwar top cover - in every case majority of camera componenets inside, including die cast, have been renewed. I suppose that this kind of conversion was affered at special quoting.

Thanks Jerzy. My 485593 above with the screw-on plate is from 1949 and it was obviously later than 429707. It seems to have been converted in 1956 under a repair ticket. Details below:

Shipping book:

 

Modell:                             Leica IIIc

Serial number:                485593

Ordner No.:                     22189

Delivered date:               11.10.1949

Delivered on/to:             to Leitz in Berlin

Code word “LOOPN”= with remunerated Elmar 3,5/5cm

Repair book:

“Repair-No.: 23428= entrance to the factory at 06.12.1956

So, this is an example of a postwar camera which did not receive a new top plate, which means that the owner did not pay the 18DM.

The interesting point about 429707 is that the top plate is engraved or stamped PATT 8665, which means either that PATT 8665 was added to the top plate by Leica or by a British Government or Military body after return from Wetzlar or that a British official institution acquired the camera after the conversion had taken place, but I think it unlikely that this would have happened in 1954 or later.

William 

 

 

 

[Fbsgfoto]

As a result of all these new information I´ve decided to mail Leica to ask about the lens this model had. An Elmar F 5cm 1:3,5 Red Scale, not know exactly model but with 1164741 from the fifties a close date from the upgrade. I first thought that being a later lens this could have been added by the Spanish photographer that “inherit” the camera. Let’s see if there is any chance the lens was somewhat linked to Britain or almost when the camera got the Spanish “nationality”.

Concerning the possible date of its conversion, 1954 or later, under my humble opinion I doubt that at that time British government kept on engraving cameras under PATT rules so the question is Could it be possible that was done by Leica itself? is the position of the camera serial number on top place on its right position or was moved to have space for the Patt engraving? Or the engraving of the PATT set made withe Leitz typography used for these works? 

Thanks @willeica and @jerzy for your vast knowledge.

 

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Edited December 1, 2021 by Fbsgfoto

[Fbsgfoto]

Leica Answer about the Leica "PATT" lens: 

many thanks for your request.

The serial mentioned by you was delivered on 26.01.1955 to city „Barcelona“ .

We do not have any more information such as recipient, only date and city.

There are no entries in the old maintenance- / repair books for this serial.

 

The camera Belonged for many years to a Spanish photographer that lived in Barcelona.

So if the camera was repaired on 1954 or later and its lens was from Spain and delivered on 1955 It's likely to think Leica re-engraved the top plate itself no matter it does not longer belonged to the British Navy.

 

Please correct me if I could be mistaken