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1 hour ago, sabears said:

It's a russian fake, no question

I agree that there is something odd about the camera with the PATT in the first photo which should be a IIIc with that SN, but is obviously not one, could be a Zorki as suggested.

Onto the British Military numbers this is a much more complex issue than it seems at first. We recently had a nearly two hour Zoom at the Photographic Collectors Club of Great Britain (PCCGB) on this topic and some of the guys on the ZOOM were ex Military or ex Ministry and had first hand experience of such numbers. There was a lot of change over time as purchasing was centralised and then decentralised again. It does not seem that anyone has written all of this up fully just just yet.  PATT was used on Royal Navy Cameras for a while, but then it was replaced with other numbering systems. The most common feature is the upward pointing arrow which is centuries old. Later on NATO numbers also appeared on some military equipment .

While I was on this call I discovered that my Reid I on the right below is in fact Royal Navy rather than RAF which the people who sold it to me had said it was. It did not bother me, as I had just wanted a Reid I when I bought this. I suspect that the 8886 is in fact the equivalent of the PATT number, but this is a later camera from the 1950s. 

 

As it turns out, far more is known about German wartime camera numbers than the British equivalents. The PCCGB Zooms are very good and on this one we had all kinds of rarities shown , such as specialised cameras for training US torpedo bomber pilots.

William

Edited by willeica
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7 hours ago, sabears said:

It's a russian fake, no question

I would agree. This camera is definitely not a IIIc, which it should be by the serial number. It has a two-piece top cover, black paint not chrome as one would expect, and the “furniture” on the camera appears to be over polished. A change of pace from the usual fake Luftwaffen Eigentum with Reichsadlers, etc.

Now the IIIcK pictured on the other hand looks legit.

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Hi,

I've got the opportunity of personally inspecting the 385817 which has the "PATT 8665" engraving on top of the serial number (documented in Viewfinder Vol.7 No. 3) and it's a specially interesting camera because it was exported to Switzerland during the war in 1942, probably being the final destination the Royal Navy. Let's keep in mind that most of those Navy cameras were pre-war samples.

And, of course, the shown in the original post is not a Leica (just look at the top of the rangefinder window aligned with the top, the accessory shoe, the number engravings in the frame counter, the winding knob, shutter button etc.).

Hope it will help,

Augusto

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12 hours ago, derleicaman said:

I would agree. This camera is definitely not a IIIc, which it should be by the serial number. It has a two-piece top cover, black paint not chrome as one would expect, and the “furniture” on the camera appears to be over polished. A change of pace from the usual fake Luftwaffen Eigentum with Reichsadlers, etc.

Now the IIIcK pictured on the other hand looks legit.

Bill, I can talk to some of the experts at PCCGB about doing something on the mystique of British military numbers for Viewfinder. The guys there are really enthusiastic. One of them put on his old military uniform to show off his camera which had been on an RAF bomber, if I remember correctly. We also have a member in the US who regularly contributes on some wonderful US military stuff. Not only Leicas and Leica copies, but also those big Kodaks in khaki paint have been shown. Those have also appeared on this forum. I'm sure that Jim Lager also has some material on the British military items. 

1 hour ago, tranquilo67 said:

Hi,

I've got the opportunity of personally inspecting the 385817 which has the "PATT 8665" engraving on top of the serial number (documented in Viewfinder Vol.7 No. 3) and it's a specially interesting camera because it was exported to Switzerland during the war in 1942, probably being the final destination the Royal Navy. Let's keep in mind that most of those Navy cameras were pre-war samples.

And, of course, the shown in the original post is not a Leica (just look at the top of the rangefinder window aligned with the top, the accessory shoe, the number engravings in the frame counter, the winding knob, shutter button etc.).

Hope it will help,

Augusto

Augusto, the PATT thing seems to have ended either at the end of the war or not long afterwards and was replaced by the numbering system shown on my Reid above. 

William 

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42 minutes ago, willeica said:

Bill, I can talk to some of the experts at PCCGB about doing something on the mystique of British military numbers for Viewfinder. The guys there are really enthusiastic. One of them put on his old military uniform to show off his camera which had been on an RAF bomber, if I remember correctly. We also have a member in the US who regularly contributes on some wonderful US military stuff. Not only Leicas and Leica copies, but also those big Kodaks in khaki paint have been shown. Those have also appeared on this forum. I'm sure that Jim Lager also has some material on the British military items. 

Augusto, the PATT thing seems to have ended either at the end of the war or not long afterwards and was replaced by the numbering system shown on my Reid above. 

William 

Yes, that's what I had heard. That supports the theory about that camera was acquired during the war for the British Navy through the Swiss dealer, that is quite unusual in wartime IIIc.

Best wishes,

Augusto

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1 hour ago, tranquilo67 said:

Yes, that's what I had heard. That supports the theory about that camera was acquired during the war for the British Navy through the Swiss dealer, that is quite unusual in wartime IIIc.

Best wishes,

Augusto

I have sent you some material by email, Augusto. If you have some specific questions about British military markings I can pass it along time people who know as much as there is to be known about such markings.

William 

Edited by willeica
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20 minutes ago, willeica said:

I have sent you some material by email, Augusto. If you have some specific questions about British military markings I can pass it along time people who know as much as there is to be known about such markings.

William 

Don't doubt that I will take advantage of that kind offer!! :)

Best wishes,

Augusto

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  • 1 month later...

It was a long time since I entered this forum and I am glad to see you are again talking about Patt Leicas. Augusto Liger told me that  @willeica (William) had some news about war cameras. SoI would like to ask you again if you have new information could  help me to identify my PATT one. As always, any thank will be thanked. 

 

P.S. Leica told me that "In our old delivery books there are no entries for the serial numbers you mentioned, nor are there any entries in the old repair or maintenance books" 

Edited by Fbsgfoto
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51 minutes ago, Fbsgfoto said:

It was a long time since I entered this forum and I am glad to see you are again talking about Patt Leicas. Augusto Liger told me that  @willeica (William) had some news about war cameras. SoI would like to ask you again if you have new information could  help me to identify my PATT one. As always, any thank will be thanked. 

 

P.S. Leica told me that "In our old delivery books there are no entries for the serial numbers you mentioned, nor are there any entries in the old repair or maintenance books" 

I gave a reply on this camera before. This camera seems to be a IIIc from 1946 or 47 converted to a IIIf Black Dial in the early 1950s. The PATT 8665 marking was used for prewar and wartime acquisitions, particularly for donated cameras. There were subsequent markings used by the British Military. Some of these were extremely complex, particularly in the NATO era. There is a great deal of expertise in the Photographic Collectors Club of Great Britain about such markings. I am a member of PCCGB and I will pass this on to some of the people there to see if they can throw more light on the subject.

William 

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