PATT 8665

[frame-it]

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Anyone know what PATT 8665 is ?

saw this in an underground shop the other day, phone pic through an old glass cabinet

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[AndreasG]

Have a look here

 

Edited September 12, 2021 by AndreasG

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[PG Black nickel]

nice find

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[sabears]

It's a russian fake, no question

[PG Black nickel]

It is indeed a beautiful Zorki 2 !!

[willeica]

1 hour ago, sabears said:

It's a russian fake, no question

I agree that there is something odd about the camera with the PATT in the first photo which should be a IIIc with that SN, but is obviously not one, could be a Zorki as suggested.

Onto the British Military numbers this is a much more complex issue than it seems at first. We recently had a nearly two hour Zoom at the Photographic Collectors Club of Great Britain (PCCGB) on this topic and some of the guys on the ZOOM were ex Military or ex Ministry and had first hand experience of such numbers. There was a lot of change over time as purchasing was centralised and then decentralised again. It does not seem that anyone has written all of this up fully just just yet.  PATT was used on Royal Navy Cameras for a while, but then it was replaced with other numbering systems. The most common feature is the upward pointing arrow which is centuries old. Later on NATO numbers also appeared on some military equipment .

While I was on this call I discovered that my Reid I on the right below is in fact Royal Navy rather than RAF which the people who sold it to me had said it was. It did not bother me, as I had just wanted a Reid I when I bought this. I suspect that the 8886 is in fact the equivalent of the PATT number, but this is a later camera from the 1950s. 

 

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As it turns out, far more is known about German wartime camera numbers than the British equivalents. The PCCGB Zooms are very good and on this one we had all kinds of rarities shown , such as specialised cameras for training US torpedo bomber pilots.

William

Edited September 12, 2021 by willeica

[derleicaman]

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7 hours ago, sabears said:

It's a russian fake, no question

I would agree. This camera is definitely not a IIIc, which it should be by the serial number. It has a two-piece top cover, black paint not chrome as one would expect, and the “furniture” on the camera appears to be over polished. A change of pace from the usual fake Luftwaffen Eigentum with Reichsadlers, etc.

Now the IIIcK pictured on the other hand looks legit.

[frame-it]

yes its the iiic-K that actually caught my eye

[tranquilo67]

Hi,

I've got the opportunity of personally inspecting the 385817 which has the "PATT 8665" engraving on top of the serial number (documented in Viewfinder Vol.7 No. 3) and it's a specially interesting camera because it was exported to Switzerland during the war in 1942, probably being the final destination the Royal Navy. Let's keep in mind that most of those Navy cameras were pre-war samples.

And, of course, the shown in the original post is not a Leica (just look at the top of the rangefinder window aligned with the top, the accessory shoe, the number engravings in the frame counter, the winding knob, shutter button etc.).

Hope it will help,

Augusto

[willeica]

12 hours ago, derleicaman said:

I would agree. This camera is definitely not a IIIc, which it should be by the serial number. It has a two-piece top cover, black paint not chrome as one would expect, and the “furniture” on the camera appears to be over polished. A change of pace from the usual fake Luftwaffen Eigentum with Reichsadlers, etc.

Now the IIIcK pictured on the other hand looks legit.

Bill, I can talk to some of the experts at PCCGB about doing something on the mystique of British military numbers for Viewfinder. The guys there are really enthusiastic. One of them put on his old military uniform to show off his camera which had been on an RAF bomber, if I remember correctly. We also have a member in the US who regularly contributes on some wonderful US military stuff. Not only Leicas and Leica copies, but also those big Kodaks in khaki paint have been shown. Those have also appeared on this forum. I'm sure that Jim Lager also has some material on the British military items. 

1 hour ago, tranquilo67 said:

Hi,

I've got the opportunity of personally inspecting the 385817 which has the "PATT 8665" engraving on top of the serial number (documented in Viewfinder Vol.7 No. 3) and it's a specially interesting camera because it was exported to Switzerland during the war in 1942, probably being the final destination the Royal Navy. Let's keep in mind that most of those Navy cameras were pre-war samples.

And, of course, the shown in the original post is not a Leica (just look at the top of the rangefinder window aligned with the top, the accessory shoe, the number engravings in the frame counter, the winding knob, shutter button etc.).

Hope it will help,

Augusto

Augusto, the PATT thing seems to have ended either at the end of the war or not long afterwards and was replaced by the numbering system shown on my Reid above. 

William 

[tranquilo67]

42 minutes ago, willeica said:

Bill, I can talk to some of the experts at PCCGB about doing something on the mystique of British military numbers for Viewfinder. The guys there are really enthusiastic. One of them put on his old military uniform to show off his camera which had been on an RAF bomber, if I remember correctly. We also have a member in the US who regularly contributes on some wonderful US military stuff. Not only Leicas and Leica copies, but also those big Kodaks in khaki paint have been shown. Those have also appeared on this forum. I'm sure that Jim Lager also has some material on the British military items. 

Augusto, the PATT thing seems to have ended either at the end of the war or not long afterwards and was replaced by the numbering system shown on my Reid above. 

William 

Yes, that's what I had heard. That supports the theory about that camera was acquired during the war for the British Navy through the Swiss dealer, that is quite unusual in wartime IIIc.

Best wishes,

Augusto

[willeica]

1 hour ago, tranquilo67 said:

Yes, that's what I had heard. That supports the theory about that camera was acquired during the war for the British Navy through the Swiss dealer, that is quite unusual in wartime IIIc.

Best wishes,

Augusto

I have sent you some material by email, Augusto. If you have some specific questions about British military markings I can pass it along time people who know as much as there is to be known about such markings.

William 

Edited September 13, 2021 by willeica

[tranquilo67]

20 minutes ago, willeica said:

I have sent you some material by email, Augusto. If you have some specific questions about British military markings I can pass it along time people who know as much as there is to be known about such markings.

William 

Don't doubt that I will take advantage of that kind offer!!

Best wishes,

Augusto

[frame-it]

6 hours ago, willeica said:

to show off his camera which had been on an RAF bomber,

i wonder which lenses they used from way up in the sky ? 135mm must have been the longest ?

[Fbsgfoto]

It was a long time since I entered this forum and I am glad to see you are again talking about Patt Leicas. Augusto Liger told me that  @willeica (William) had some news about war cameras. SoI would like to ask you again if you have new information could  help me to identify my PATT one. As always, any thank will be thanked. 

 

P.S. Leica told me that "In our old delivery books there are no entries for the serial numbers you mentioned, nor are there any entries in the old repair or maintenance books" 

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Edited October 15, 2021 by Fbsgfoto

[willeica]

51 minutes ago, Fbsgfoto said:

It was a long time since I entered this forum and I am glad to see you are again talking about Patt Leicas. Augusto Liger told me that  @willeica (William) had some news about war cameras. SoI would like to ask you again if you have new information could  help me to identify my PATT one. As always, any thank will be thanked. 

 

P.S. Leica told me that "In our old delivery books there are no entries for the serial numbers you mentioned, nor are there any entries in the old repair or maintenance books" 

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I gave a reply on this camera before. This camera seems to be a IIIc from 1946 or 47 converted to a IIIf Black Dial in the early 1950s. The PATT 8665 marking was used for prewar and wartime acquisitions, particularly for donated cameras. There were subsequent markings used by the British Military. Some of these were extremely complex, particularly in the NATO era. There is a great deal of expertise in the Photographic Collectors Club of Great Britain about such markings. I am a member of PCCGB and I will pass this on to some of the people there to see if they can throw more light on the subject.

William 

[Fbsgfoto]

Thanks a lot @willeica I do really appreciate your efforts. I was talking with Augusto and told me about these members of the PCCGB with military knowledge. that's te reason I contacted you again.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Fbsgfoto

[Fbsgfoto]

Hello to everyone, I have a little update on this camera, It was recently opened to see if internal Serial matches the outside one and to my surprise I found that It was engraved by hand, no previous serial inside and appear another serial stamped on the rangefinder block. Any idea of what this number was for?

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[sabears]

013948 =  13 september '48?

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[jerzy]

no, this is consequtive number of the die cast. Leitz started this with postwar IIIc (serial >=400000) approximately. There is some, however lose relationship to the camera serial number. Below some other examples - first number is camera SN, second # is die cast number (not always clear visible on my photos). You may notice that die cast number is lower than camera serial. This is something what I need to check with early  postwar IIIc, if numbering of the die casts started really with 400001. Otherwise, Ic have different die cast and possibly own numbers. Second thing is that cameras was not necessarily produced with (always) ascending numbers.

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To the second question of Fernando, why camera serial number is scratched. Each die cast has camera serial number engraved, for IIIc it was under the shutter lock, see example below. During conversion to IIIf flash contacts have been added and they covered engraved number. In order to see camera serial on the die cast it was  scratched close to the release button. This is as well the place where all cameras produced as IIf/IIIf have number engraved.