M mount lens comparison between Zeiss and Voigtlander

[Dennis]

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11 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Today, in 2021, Zeiss is basically dead, their last M mount lens was the 35mm Distagon released in 2014,

That's why we all want to see a lighter and smaller lens for 2022: ZM 35/1.4 v2

I'm IN

 

[Danner]

3 hours ago, Dennis said:

That's why we all want to see a lighter and smaller lens for 2022: ZM 35/1.4 v2

I'm IN

 

Indeed.

Something toward the size parameters of the Summilux 35mm, f/1.4 (pre-ASPH).  Maybe not that tiny, but a lot smaller than the current Distagon.  That would get my interest for sure.

[Einst_Stein]

It took me a lot of reading to go over these discussions. 
In general ZM is Moore preferred to VM in almost all focal length. Alas these are all personal impressions without reference pictures.

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[jiri-c]

Hello.

Zeiss ZM  lenses are basically recalculations of very very old designs and this, along with use of probably best coating known to mankind, results in exceptional optical quality.

What i love about Zeiss glass is the strict use of spherical elements, and seriously overdesigned optics. Lack of ASPH is a proof, that there are still gaps indesign of traditional optics that are worth filling.

The 25mm f2.8, 35mm f2.8 or 50mm f2, despite their origins in the film era, are provided with optical qualities and resolution, that are paralleled or maybe slightly surpassed only by latest ASPH releases (i mean Leica). And they perform still exceptionally even on hi-res digital sensors. Cosina is catching up, but they, i think, even 10 or so years later, are not there yet. CV designs from the same era (10-15 years back) are just not much to write home about in terms of use on modern bodies. So for me it's about optical overdesign vs. "good enough for now" approach. 

and of course i might be wrong...

[Simone_DF]

4 hours ago, Einst_Stein said:

It took me a lot of reading to go over these discussions. 
In general ZM is Moore preferred to VM in almost all focal length. Alas these are all personal impressions without reference pictures.

Most of these comparison are between the older version of VC's lenses.

Take your first link, it mentions the VC 35mm 1.2 II and the VC 35mm 1.4. Both these lenses are obsolete. The 1.2 II version has been updated to a newer version optimized for digital sensors during 2020, while the 1.4 version was updated to a v II in 2019, and that is not even to mention that the 1.4 II is specifically marketed as a "classic" design (ie designed for character / classic rendering rather than modern sharpness) and comes with a choice of single or multiple coatings

You may want to have a look at the review of the CV APO 35mm F2, it's compared against a few lenses, including the Zeiss 35mm 1.4

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1695782/0 

[Einst_Stein]

Thanks for the link, an interesting discussion, but it compares Voigtlander with Sigma. The two are very similar. 
It shows Sigma is a very sensible alternative to Voigtlander. 

With so many reviews on the new VM but almost none on the VM vs ZM , it is clear the comparison is not favorable yet. I am expecting a stronger VM to stand against ZM. 

 

 

[Einst_Stein]

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11 hours ago, jiri-c said:

Hello.

Zeiss ZM  lenses are basically recalculations of very very old designs and this, along with use of probably best coating known to mankind, results in exceptional optical quality.

What i love about Zeiss glass is the strict use of spherical elements, and seriously overdesigned optics. Lack of ASPH is a proof, that there are still gaps indesign of traditional optics that are worth filling.

The 25mm f2.8, 35mm f2.8 or 50mm f2, despite their origins in the film era, are provided with optical qualities and resolution, that are paralleled or maybe slightly surpassed only by latest ASPH releases (i mean Leica). And they perform still exceptionally even on hi-res digital sensors. Cosina is catching up, but they, i think, even 10 or so years later, are not there yet. CV designs from the same era (10-15 years back) are just not much to write home about in terms of use on modern bodies. So for me it's about optical overdesign vs. "good enough for now" approach. 

and of course i might be wrong...

I have Elmer 135mm built in 1965. 
Newer design , more xxx elements , so what? Only visible IQ counts.

[jdlaing]

On 8/15/2021 at 1:09 PM, Einst_Stein said:

Doesn’t mean a thing? Be realistic. Who made them surely means a lot. 
But your points that the design also makes difference is well taken.  Overall these will be reflected in the pricing strategy. 

Some ZM lenses are made in Germany and some in Japan but the glass elements are ground and polished by Zeiss.

[Simone_DF]

On 8/16/2021 at 7:52 PM, Einst_Stein said:

With so many reviews on the new VM but almost none on the VM vs ZM , it is clear the comparison is not favorable yet. I am expecting a stronger VM to stand against ZM. 

No, the only thing that is clear is that there's no one that owns both.

Another thing is clear though. By reading your comment, I understand you have already made your decision before even starting the thread and basically are just looking for ways to justify your decision.

[pedaes]

On 8/16/2021 at 6:52 PM, Einst_Stein said:

With so many reviews on the new VM but almost none on the VM vs ZM

Plenty on Sean Reids (subscription) site.

[Einst_Stein]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

No, the only thing that is clear is that there's no one that owns both.

Another thing is clear though. By reading your comment, I understand you have already made your decision before even starting the thread and basically are just looking for ways to justify your decision.

I have seen comparisons of the two and get my impressions. Yes that impression favors ZM, and now I am looking for new reviews on the recent release. Except personal non-conclusive non-objective comments that favors either, none has provided reference evidence on what was said yet. 

No one owns both has never been an execute for this type of review. The lens vendor would offer samples to their favorable reviewers for testing. Do not worry that. 

if you have your conclusion, some simple reference images would be needed. It is not that hard. 

Anything to show the audience here?

[Einst_Stein]

1 hour ago, pedaes said:

Plenty on Sean Reids (subscription) site.

Thanks, good to know.

This? I think he is more excited on Sigma than Voigtlander.

 

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Edited August 17, 2021 by Einst_Stein

[pippy]

On 8/14/2021 at 2:52 AM, Einst_Stein said:

...I am particularly interested in 50mm.f2, 50mm.f1.5, 35mm/f1,4, 35mm/f2, 28mm/f2.8, 25mm/f2.8, 21mm/f2.8, While VM may have wider aperture in the corresponding focal length, which is a big plus, but I wonder how the compared at the overlapped stops. A wider aperture with inferior performance at stop down is not very attractive to me...

Might I suggest that you simply go into a dealership and try them all out for yourself? Then you will have irrefutable, empirical evidence on which you can then base any future purchasing decision and know precisely what you are getting?

Chatting about 'stuff' on fora is all very well but once it comes down to very fine details of specific personal preference 'chatter' becomes pretty meaningless.

Good luck.

Philip.

[Einst_Stein]

35 minutes ago, pippy said:

Might I suggest that you simply go into a dealership and try them all out for yourself? Then you will have irrefutable, empirical evidence on which you can then base any future purchasing decision and know precisely what you are getting?

Chatting about 'stuff' on fora is all very well but once it comes down to very fine details of specific personal preference 'chatter' becomes pretty meaningless.

Good luck.

Philip.

Good suggestion, but not practical since there is no more physical camera store around. 
If no one can provide image for comparisons, so be it. Not a big deal.
It is itself an implication how the comparison would be like. 

[Simone_DF]

If you cannot make your mind up with the tonnes of sample pictures in various threads on this and other forums, nothing else will.

I don't think Voigtlander is paying me enough to try to convince you 

[crony]

12 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

No, the only thing that is clear is that there's no one that owns both. ...

 

NO!!! I own and use 5 M mount 50s :

Leica Summicron 2/50 v 5

Leica Summarit 2,5/50

Voigtländer Apo-Lanthar 2/50

ZEISS Planar 2/50

ZEISS Sonnar 1,5/50

When I go out taking pics I mount one lens. And on another day, another one ... This means, if I take pics of the same subjects, there is almost always some variation.

Hence, no ceteris paribus etc. No proper testing. This is why I just stated my impressions above. For those really interested there is a Leica thread in talkphotography

where justpix posted comparison pics.

 

 

[Simone_DF]

5 minutes ago, crony said:

NO!!! I own and use 5 M mount 50s :

Leica Summicron 2/50 v 5

Leica Summarit 2,5/50

Voigtländer Apo-Lanthar 2/50

ZEISS Planar 2/50

ZEISS Sonnar 1,5/50

When I go out taking pics I mount one lens. And on another day, another one ... This means, if I take pics of the same subjects, there is almost always some variation.

Hence, no ceteris paribus etc. No proper testing. This is why I just stated my impressions above. For those really interested there is a Leica thread in talkphotography

where justpix posted comparison pics.

Same here, I have multiple 50s, including the Summilux and the Sonnar, both truly excellent lenses that have different strenghts and use cases, but in my post I was referring to a direct comparison between the Zeiss Distagon and the Voigtlander APO 35mm. I owned the Distagon in the past, but sold it.

[crony]

Just now, Simone_DF said:

Same here, I have multiple 50s, including the Summilux and the Sonnar, both truly excellent lenses that have different strenghts and use cases, but in my post I was referring to a direct comparison between the Zeiss Distagon and the Voigtlander APO 35mm. I owned the Distagon in the past, but sold it.

Oh, sorry, I thought this was about 50 s. 🤔

I also have 5 M mount 35s, one of which is the ZEISS Distagon I am happy with.

Onion rings shown by my VOIGTLÄNDER Nokton 1,2/35 V1 (and grainy bokeh of my Apo-Lanthar 2/50 in some cases) made me less interested in the 35mm Apo-Lanthar.

[Simone_DF]

29 minutes ago, crony said:

Oh, sorry, I thought this was about 50 s. 🤔

I also have 5 M mount 35s, one of which is the ZEISS Distagon I am happy with.

Onion rings shown by my VOIGTLÄNDER Nokton 1,2/35 V1 (and grainy bokeh of my Apo-Lanthar 2/50 in some cases) made me less interested in the 35mm Apo-Lanthar.

Onion rings and grainy bokeh are present on the Leica versions too:

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[crony]

6 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Onion rings and grainy bokeh are present on the Leica versions too: ...

 

Which would disappoint me ... The Distagon has a smooth bokeh. Which is why I have it.