Leicameter MR-4

[AllNoAll]

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Hey,

I just purchased a Leicameter MR-4 to go with my M2 from a seller on eBay located in Turkey called the Leicashop, that apparently refurbishes these meters and converts them to use 1.55V Silver/Alkaline batteries. Has anyone had any experience with them? They have very good reviews. I almost got the Voigtlander VCII, but I like the integration of the MR-4 into the camera much better. The meter will live on the camera.

More importantly what are your thoughts the MR-4 meter? I like to carry the camera with one hand, cuffed to my wrist, when shooting street work. It has become quite annoying metering one-handed with my left-hand while my right-hand holds the camera.  For street I'm not a big fan of camera straps. I like to meter when I find a new location, or if the lighting is changing frequently, rather than relying on the sunny 16 rule.

Allan

[LeicaM3-Fan]

https://shop.criscam.com/collections/mercury-battery-adapters/products/mr-9-mercury-battery-adapter

 

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by LeicaM3-Fan

[andrew01]

14 hours ago, AllNoAll said:

Hey,

I just purchased a Leicameter MR-4 to go with my M2 from a seller on eBay located in Turkey called the Leicashop, that apparently refurbishes these meters and converts them to use 1.55V Silver/Alkaline batteries. Has anyone had any experience with them? They have very good reviews. I almost got the Voigtlander VCII, but I like the integration of the MR-4 into the camera much better. The meter will live on the camera.

More importantly what are your thoughts the MR-4 meter? I like to carry the camera with one hand, cuffed to my wrist, when shooting street work. It has become quite annoying metering one-handed with my left-hand while my right-hand holds the camera.  For street I'm not a big fan of camera straps. I like to meter when I find a new location, or if the lighting is changing frequently, rather than relying on the sunny 16 rule.

Allan

Thanks for the tip on that ebay seller.  Please report back on your experience when you have received and film tested the meter.

I have the VC-ii on my M3.  Although it is nice and compact it has the following flaws:

- easy to bump out of the shoe when taking the camera from your bag.

- iso setting wheel not firm enough - easy to accidentally move the film speed setting.

- both shutter and aperture dials too loose, and easy to accidentally change one of the settings.  I usually work at a constant shutter speed for the approximate lighting conditions and meter for the required aperture.  I would like to see a firmer lock on the VC-ii shutter speed dial so it is less easy to accidentally change.

 

In summary the VC-ii is quite fiddly to use. I think a serviced Leicameter is a better choice.

 

[Matlock]

8 minutes ago, andrew01 said:

 

In summary the VC-ii is quite fiddly to use. I think a serviced Leicameter is a better choice.

 

Provided one knows how to mount and unmount it without damaging the plating on the camera top plate. I see far too many Ms with the chrome ruined.

I soetimes use a VCII without any problems and the bonus is that it works equally well on LTM cameras. Having said that I normally use a hand held meter or just sunny 16.

[spydrxx]

 

I used a MR-4 for a number of years on my M4 without problems. I learned that throughout the day from about 9am-5pm in the summer often there was little if any change in lighting unless one went from sunshine to shade. Once I confirmed that with many shots over a couple of years, I dispensed with the meter, as its readings generally coincided with sunny 16 guidelines. The MR-4 meter, IMHO, wasn't as precise as some handheld meters, but if one was careful in metering, it worked very well.  If indeed you can get a reconditioned one in good working order, I'm certain you'll be pleased with the results.      

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Allan,

Welcome to the Forum.

You might try putting 2 pieces of very THIN masking tape, 1 each, on the bottom of the 2 rails of the VCII meter mounting shoe. Then it may be less likely to slide out of the accessory shoe. The M2 shoe has little "springy" things to push up

The reason for using masking tape is: Masking tape is designed to stay where you put it for a long time & then, when you want to, it comes off easily.

As per the MR4: It is important to CALIBRATE any new meter that you get against a known accurate meter. 

You might try 2 stops from either extreme of both ranges & the center of each range using a known accurate meter as a reference.

Not many meters are as accurate as they might be in the highest & the lowest positions of their ranges.

An MR or an MR4 meter has a sensitivity range that is accurate from EV2 to EV18 @ an ISO of 100/21.

This means f2 @ 1 second to f16 @ 1/1000 with an ISO 100/21 film. Or the same if you are using the meter with a digital camera set @ ISO 100/21

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited August 1, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht

[AllNoAll]

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On 8/1/2021 at 6:07 AM, andrew01 said:

Thanks for the tip on that ebay seller.  Please report back on your experience when you have received and film tested the meter.

I have the VC-ii on my M3.  Although it is nice and compact it has the following flaws:

- easy to bump out of the shoe when taking the camera from your bag.

- iso setting wheel not firm enough - easy to accidentally move the film speed setting.

- both shutter and aperture dials too loose, and easy to accidentally change one of the settings.  I usually work at a constant shutter speed for the approximate lighting conditions and meter for the required aperture.  I would like to see a firmer lock on the VC-ii shutter speed dial so it is less easy to accidentally change.

 

In summary the VC-ii is quite fiddly to use. I think a serviced Leicameter is a better choice.

 

Hey Andrew,

That's what the VCII looked like to me when doing my research. It just looked like it was a cheap meter stuck to the top of a precision instrument. the MR-4 looks like it is part of the camera. I did message the seller, asking them to define what they do to refurbish and change the battery calibration to the 1.55v Alkaline batteries. Their response is below. They seem legit to me, and like they know what they are doing. They have almost 2000 positive feedback on eBay and 100% positive. They shipped it today just like they said they would.

New message from: leicashop (1,935)

Hi Allan!  Thanks for your purchase. I clean and lubricate and adjust each meter with reference to a fresh 1.5v alkaline battery. This involves refreshing solder joints and polishing contacts. I also calibrate the battery gauge point. Each meter is individually adjusted with the help of two trim pots on the circuit board and tested.  Batteries come with different letter suffixes, which doesn't make a difference afaik. I prefer alkaline batteries because zinc-air batteries self discharge in one month and they (also physical adapters) do not fit into leicameter battery compartments. Alkalines are a good compromise. Just make sure you test them once in a while because when they fail they go low voltage and that will give wrong readings. If only they manufactured silver chemistry 625 batteries.

[AllNoAll]

On 8/1/2021 at 6:20 AM, Matlock said:

Provided one knows how to mount and unmount it without damaging the plating on the camera top plate. I see far too many Ms with the chrome ruined.

I soetimes use a VCII without any problems and the bonus is that it works equally well on LTM cameras. Having said that I normally use a hand held meter or just sunny 16.

I actually purchased 1mm thick black stick-on felt to stick to the bottom of the MR-4 when it get it. I'll make a pattern with paper once I get the meter, trace the pattern onto the stick-on felt, then cut the felt using an X-acto blade, and stick it to the bottom of the meter to prevent damage to the camera.

[AllNoAll]

On 8/1/2021 at 12:47 PM, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Allan,

Welcome to the Forum.

You might try putting 2 pieces of very THIN masking tape, 1 each, on the bottom of the 2 rails of the VCII meter mounting shoe. Then it may be less likely to slide out of the accessory shoe. The M2 shoe has little "springy" things to push up

The reason for using masking tape is: Masking tape is designed to stay where you put it for a long time & then, when you want to, it comes off easily.

As per the MR4: It is important to CALIBRATE any new meter that you get against a known accurate meter. 

You might try 2 stops from either extreme of both ranges & the center of each range using a known accurate meter as a reference.

Not many meters are as accurate as they might be in the highest & the lowest positions of their ranges.

An MR or an MR4 meter has a sensitivity range that is accurate from EV2 to EV18 @ an ISO of 100/21.

This means f2 @ 1 second to f16 @ 1/1000 with an ISO 100/21 film. Or the same if you are using the meter with a digital camera set @ ISO 100/21

Best Regards,

Michael

Hey Michael,

All great advice! Thanks for this! It should come calibrated, but I will test it thoroughly against my Sekonic L-478 (with reflected light adapter) before the seller's return period expires.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello AllNoAll,

The scratches on the top plates of "M" Leicas come about because the attachment shoe is improperly adjusted to that specific camera.

If you turn the meter upside down & look at the shoe: There are 3 screws with wide heads & 2 headless screws.

First: With the meter off the camera & in your hand: turn the meter dial to "B". Lift up the wheel GENTLY & continue turning to 30 Seconds (Yes), or, to where the wheel stops.

Set the CAMERA'S shutter speed dial to "B".

START to slide the meter into the camera shoe with you looking from the back to make sure that the meter bottom clears the camera top.

If it appears to being ABOUT to touch: Stop.

Pull out the meter.

Turn the meter upside down & look at the 5 screws described above in this Post.

With appropriate small screw drivers loosen the 3 large headed screws 1/4 or so of a turn. Loosen the 2 smaller screws until they do NOT protrude above the METER shoe on the camera side. Turn the 3 larger screws until they just stop LIGHTLY. Turn the 2 headless screws until they stop LIGHTLY.

Now slide the meter in until it is either: Clear of the top of the camera. Or else it HITS the camera top.

If the meter clears the camera top by about 2 millimeters: Snug the 2 headless screws alternately & incrementally. Not too tight.

Then little by little do the same with the 3 large headed screws checking that the meter is parallel to the camera top & continues to be appx 2mm away.

If, when you went to slide the meter in, in the beginning: The meter touched the top of the camera: Do what I just explained after turning the 2 headless screws a little so that they stick out between the meter shoe & the top of the camera. So that they lift the meter body above the meter shoe.

All of this is easier to do than it is for me to write.

I'll be back.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited August 2, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello AllNoAll,

I'm back.

This is part 2 of 3 parts. Each is important. Each takes longer to write than they do to do.

It is important that the little pin on the bottom of the meter shutter speed wheel fit into the groove between the 2 & the 5, or 4, on the CAMERA shutter speed wheel. Please note that if this meter is used on earlier bodies with a "5" instead of a "4" all of the marked shutter speeds on the meter dial may not line up with the mark at each "click" when it is being used: But the "clicked" shutter speed on the camera will function correctly & the lens opening on the meter will accurately indicate the correct lens opening for the speed "clicked" on the camera.

With the now correctly aligned meter, with the shutter speed set to 30 seconds, or perhaps a little less & the shutter speed wheel on the CAMERA set to "B": Slide the properly aligned meter into the shoe.

Turn the METER shutter speed wheel back to "B". The the wheel should "click" & the little pin should drop down EXACTLY into the slot between 2 & 5 or 4.

If it does not, adjust as you did above.

Once the pin aligns correctly rotate the 2 shutter speed wheels which are now connected by the pin, while, at the same time: Looking from the back to make sure that the WHEEL clears everything as it should & that the pin stays properly engaged with the camera wheel from "B" to "1/1000" and back, a couple of times.

If it needs adjustment, do as above.

Almost done . I'll be back.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited August 2, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello AllNoAll,

Last part. This is important.

Sometimes some people think that the meters that connect to the Shutter Speed Dial: MC, MR, MR4, etc. are not very accurate because: In REALITY the meter is NOT measuring what the photographer is pointing at.

It is time to point the meter so that it matches what the 90mm frame is covering.

To do this the camera should be on a tripod & there should be a VERYDARK rectangular target to put against a LIGHT background. The rectangular target should be the size & the shape so that it ENTIRELY fills a 90mm frame. At ANY distance that you choose that is at least 3 meters/10 feet away from the camera. More is OK.

For example: a dark  large rock or car against a light wall or building is fine.

There does NOT need to be any correlation with the distance set on the lens & the distance away that the target is.

Then, with the camera on a tripod (It MUST be on a tripod for this.) set the target at WHATEVER distance is necessary that is AT LEAST 3 METERS/10 FEET away from the camera so that it fills the 90mm frame with the target. Longer distances are fine also.

With the 90mm frame pushed in on the camera body. Or with a 90mm lens on the camera: Choose 1 (One) distance.

I chose Infinity because that is a handy distance to remember & to work with. Focus the lens to this distance & then leave it there.

This will move the frame lines in the camera to the point where you want them to be when you measure with the MR or MR4 meters which cover the same 27 degree angle of view that a 90mm lens does.

Now by pushing the meter measuring button & adjusting the meter shoe (Yes, I know that this is "again".): Get the meter aligned. (Remember: The lens focus is NOT touched.) So that the meter reads the least when the 90mm frame lines frame the dark rectangular target.

Now, do all of the same adjusting as above again.

We are almost DONE.

Now, take a piece of thin masking tape (It comes off easily when you want it to.) & cut it to the size of the lower part of the bottom of the meter shoe. The part with the screws.

Put it in place. But, not on the rails of the meter shoe. This will help to keep the large head screws from opening which will help to keep the headless screws in place.

Now, we are actually DONE.

Mount the meter on the camera. Point the camera at your subject with the LENS focused to the distance you chose to align the metering cell to (which is 1 of the reasons that Infinity is a good choice.).

Push the button to measure the scene PRECISELY (A Leitz/Leica term.).

Then, set the proper exposure & focus & take a photo.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited August 2, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht

[andrew01]

Thanks for those posts Michael,

That is very useful information about calibrating the position of the meter.

I am curious to know if the misalignment of the meter reading patch is always in a vertical sense or is it also possible to have lateral errors too?  

Thinking about your instructions I suppose the workflow in practise is to first center the dark rectangle in the framelines, and then adjust one axis of the camera position while looking at the meter needle.  A geared tripod head would make this easy.  Adjust the camera position up and down until the meter reading is minimised and then recheck the position of the black rectangle relative to the framelines.  If not centered adjust the meter foot and iterate.

Thinking about these instructions makes me appreciate the simplicity of the meter in my M6, but I am still curious to try a leicameter for my M3 in the future.

 

[Michael Geschlecht]

13 minutes ago, andrew01 said:

Thanks for those posts Michael,

That is very useful information about calibrating the position of the meter.

I am curious to know if the misalignment of the meter reading patch is always in a vertical sense or is it also possible to have lateral errors too?  

Thinking about your instructions I suppose the workflow in practise is to first center the dark rectangle in the framelines, and then adjust one axis of the camera position while looking at the meter needle.  A geared tripod head would make this easy.  Adjust the camera position up and down until the meter reading is minimised and then recheck the position of the black rectangle relative to the framelines.  If not centered adjust the meter foot and iterate.

Thinking about these instructions makes me appreciate the simplicity of the meter in my M6, but I am still curious to try a leicameter for my M3 in the future.

 

Hello Andrew,

Welcome to the Forum.

Thank you.

Whichever way you want to fill the frame with the dark object, like a rock, or a car against a light wall or building, etc. is OK.

All of this is easier to do than it is to write.

Behind the lens meters are easier than these for close-ups & the like. Altho once an MR, MR4 meter is properly adjusted, as above, in most situations, from EV2 to EV18 @ ISO 100/21, the MR & MR4 meters work pretty much the same as the behind the lens meter in an M6.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited August 2, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht

[AllNoAll]

6 hours ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello AllNoAll,

The scratches on the top plates of "M" Leicas come about because the attachment shoe is improperly adjusted to that specific camera.

If you turn the meter upside down & look at the shoe: There are 3 screws with wide heads & 2 headless screws.

First: With the meter off the camera & in your hand: turn the meter dial to "B". Lift up the wheel GENTLY & continue turning to 30 Seconds (Yes), or, to where the wheel stops.

Set the CAMERA'S shutter speed dial to "B".

START to slide the meter into the camera shoe with you looking from the back to make sure that the meter bottom clears the camera top.

If it appears to being ABOUT to touch: Stop.

Pull out the meter.

Turn the meter upside down & look at the 5 screws described above in this Post.

With appropriate small screw drivers loosen the 3 large headed screws 1/4 or so of a turn. Loosen the 2 smaller screws until they do NOT protrude above the METER shoe on the camera side. Turn the 3 larger screws until they just stop LIGHTLY. Turn the 2 headless screws until they stop LIGHTLY.

Now slide the meter in until it is either: Clear of the top of the camera. Or else it HITS the camera top.

If the meter clears the camera top by about 2 millimeters: Snug the 2 headless screws alternately & incrementally. Not too tight.

Then little by little do the same with the 3 large headed screws checking that the meter is parallel to the camera top & continues to be appx 2mm away.

If, when you went to slide the meter in, in the beginning: The meter touched the top of the camera: Do what I just explained after turning the 2 headless screws a little so that they stick out between the meter shoe & the top of the camera. So that they lift the meter body above the meter shoe.

All of this is easier to do than it is for me to write.

I'll be back.

Best Regards,

Michael

Michael! This is great! Thank you for this!

[Matlock]

Michael's posts are really useful to those not used to mounting and using the Leicameter. Sadly most of the damage to top plates has already been done by people who lacked that knowledge in the past. 

[Helge]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb AllNoAll:

Hey Andrew,

That's what the VCII looked like to me when doing my research. It just looked like it was a cheap meter stuck to the top of a precision instrument. the MR-4 looks like it is part of the camera. I did message the seller, asking them to define what they do to refurbish and change the battery calibration to the 1.55v Alkaline batteries. Their response is below. They seem legit to me, and like they know what they are doing. They have almost 2000 positive feedback on eBay and 100% positive. They shipped it today just like they said they would.

New message from: leicashop (1,935 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! )

Hi Allan!  Thanks for your purchase. I clean and lubricate and adjust each meter with reference to a fresh 1.5v alkaline battery. This involves refreshing solder joints and polishing contacts. I also calibrate the battery gauge point. Each meter is individually adjusted with the help of two trim pots on the circuit board and tested.  Batteries come with different letter suffixes, which doesn't make a difference afaik. I prefer alkaline batteries because zinc-air batteries self discharge in one month and they (also physical adapters) do not fit into leicameter battery compartments. Alkalines are a good compromise. Just make sure you test them once in a while because when they fail they go low voltage and that will give wrong readings. If only they manufactured silver chemistry 625 batteries.

The actual usage of alkalines for that meter is funny, unless the MR-4's results have no real dependency on voltage changes.
Alkalines create a pretty unstable voltage, at the beginning of the discharge and at its end even more:

A zinc-air battery exists (Wein Cell) that can replace an old mercury PX625:

 

I understand the lifetime argument (after you remove the seal a Wein Cell lasts only ~6 months), however some accuracy of the meter should be there.
Even using silver oxide batteries with an adapter that makes 1.35 V by a defined drop (special diode) out of the very stable 1.55 V of the silver oxide is a valid alternative!
But alkaline...........

[andrew01]

You can also get adapters that do not reduce the voltage for a couple of £ on ebay, compared to the MR-9 voltage reducing adapter which is £25.  The former solution would be perfect if the meter has been adjusted to run on 1.55V.  

 

Example below.  Use with one SR44 battery:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283957488602?_trkparms=aid%3D1110018%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.COMPLISTINGS%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200818142838%26meid%3D2661adcd3eff42618f80006764e36b81%26pid%3D101197%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D203303537156%26itm%3D283957488602%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DItemStripV101HighAdFee%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c101197.m1850&amdata=cksum%3A2839574886022661adcd3eff42618f80006764e36b81|enc%3AAQAGAAACAKPhsuSvp3Nk5tD6h5OSuSH%2F8Zpar8bUTSwzm3ahWmugdgwG2fdmhEXDNCNABYko8Uuv0pwK7ViTFsbi4A97RLJW3pYf4RcK6OJu8BI%2BXcMqW4pEAqx2haurfIybyIGWLdFiT7UlFVm5XuHSp1D3eRRGFOUtRInGHiqRfuu5YWkw1f1RmWS43FJF1PAIpbGHBMQFwiSXT2cZ%2FDxKpB%2BiY0lOf7smigKer1RX3I0phElSJtHRTyI0T3aTzOizcRbxQuPJ82dCu3Cj8u9JRk19ZrlqEnJON2CiNNorxagsi0Cp0RaqNxLH6s2SSJPnGPdCgKqq67YJByw3rEDXoI%2B3xQDdHnnZoIgDF26QrFPZkyybZjSDNDYC3nKQn3FO0xG2mfzOaopHsHqUaCtUmttNE%2Fbywn7mXmEAD3fI88LgmE%2BOpFVoRvfQv7jpQtEy7rxwNx2gnBlvGExVUjvu9W4mEUTuZXaaPZcWGvr7Y4lYt0aiPketXS9mkdeBXXbVvrgoTgH3po4UxG6mkhiPUsJJ3SKdL599THkBSLs1CosImGOlihBS5kDDU32Ux0xRKGkZx%2BHLgpWuJ98E9zS7XrJjciXi2bc%2FM6EwKDydyuL6Gtn7SuqlhAOoTiUndRFa5SSlTLqC2gpFpRSdT8RGpXCxIgxH8EfSQDwpuCAwLaEUjNQh|ampid%3APL_CLK|clp%3A2047675

Edited August 3, 2021 by andrew01

[AndreasG]

Have a look here, for the DIY guys:

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[AllNoAll]

On 8/3/2021 at 5:27 AM, Helge said:

The actual usage of alkalines for that meter is funny, unless the MR-4's results have no real dependency on voltage changes.
Alkalines create a pretty unstable voltage, at the beginning of the discharge and at its end even more:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

A zinc-air battery exists (Wein Cell) that can replace an old mercury PX625:

 

I understand the lifetime argument (after you remove the seal a Wein Cell lasts only ~6 months), however some accuracy of the meter should be there.
Even using silver oxide batteries with an adapter that makes 1.35 V by a defined drop (special diode) out of the very stable 1.55 V of the silver oxide is a valid alternative!
But alkaline...........

Well this doesn't make me happy! I'm glad the meter I'm getting has been refurbished, but this does look like Alkaline's are much less consistent in output.