Scanning Film

[MikeMyers]

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9 hours ago, grahamc said:

Hi Mike, to sure if this has been covered in other threads but how are you getting on with the Plustek 8200i Ai ?   I need a scanner for 35mm and overall it seems like a really good choice ?

I'm completely new to scanning by the way 

I flat out love it!  I have nothing negative (??) to say about it - only how glad I am that I found it.  It is relatively small, solid, easy to use, portable, quiet, and if it has any flaws, I can't find them.  My scanned images (only negatives so far, no slides) look better than I ever expected.

So far, I don't like that it cost $100 more ($500) than had it not come with the scanning software, and again, so far, I'm just using VueScan, but sometime soon I should try out the included "Silverfast 9" which was a free upgrade from the version 8 that came with the scanner.  I installed it, so it's ready for use, but I'm so comfortable with VueScan that it wasn't really needed - although it might be better than VueScan.  I dunno.

I ordered it from B&H Photo, as I wanted to check it out in case I didn't like it - but quickly fell in love with it.  It is effortless to use.  

If you're new to scanning, the most difficult thing is learning the scanning software.  Eventually it all makes sense, but there was a time when I had no idea what the choices were - but YouTube videos, along with feedback I got in the DxO PhotoLab forum, quickly had me up to speed.

You should probably buy the special gloves for handling negatives (which I never got), a brush, an air blower (not a can of compressed air), and one of the "wipes" that B&H sells for cleaning negatives.  

I've only been scanning B&W so far, as my old negatives are B&W.  I'm not qualified to suggest how good or bad it is for color slides and negatives.  Everything I've read about it has been positive, no complaints, so I felt pretty confident I was making a good choice.

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[grahamc]

On 10/14/2021 at 3:37 AM, MikeMyers said:

I flat out love it!  I have nothing negative (??) to say about it - only how glad I am that I found it.  It is relatively small, solid, easy to use, portable, quiet, and if it has any flaws, I can't find them.  My scanned images (only negatives so far, no slides) look better than I ever expected.

So far, I don't like that it cost $100 more ($500) than had it not come with the scanning software, and again, so far, I'm just using VueScan, but sometime soon I should try out the included "Silverfast 9" which was a free upgrade from the version 8 that came with the scanner.  I installed it, so it's ready for use, but I'm so comfortable with VueScan that it wasn't really needed - although it might be better than VueScan.  I dunno.

I ordered it from B&H Photo, as I wanted to check it out in case I didn't like it - but quickly fell in love with it.  It is effortless to use.  

If you're new to scanning, the most difficult thing is learning the scanning software.  Eventually it all makes sense, but there was a time when I had no idea what the choices were - but YouTube videos, along with feedback I got in the DxO PhotoLab forum, quickly had me up to speed.

You should probably buy the special gloves for handling negatives (which I never got), a brush, an air blower (not a can of compressed air), and one of the "wipes" that B&H sells for cleaning negatives.  

I've only been scanning B&W so far, as my old negatives are B&W.  I'm not qualified to suggest how good or bad it is for color slides and negatives.  Everything I've read about it has been positive, no complaints, so I felt pretty confident I was making a good choice.

Thanks for this !  Sorry for the lat reply also, I forgot to check back in in this area of the forum 

It sounds like the perfect solution for what I need.

Slight problem is there seems to be a huge backlog of orders here in Australia and none in the country currently - I better get on the hunt for one as I want to scan a project over Xmas .

How long do you think it would take to get up to speed for a beginner?  Also is there a 'basic' set of settings you would put forward (that differ fro the defaults) considering you are further down the journey ?  I've also saved a bunch of links that yourself and others posted in these chats (YouTube etc) so I can check those out as well 

I plan to use Vuescan.  The only issue is I'm trying to make a little book so I'll need to get to a decent / acceptable scan quite quickly .  The reason I am taking the plunge is that buying this scanner will cost the same $$ as it would cost me to have the 50 images for the book scanned at my lab.  I just hope I can get up to speed reasonably quickly

Thanks again 

G 

[MikeMyers]

Learning how to use the scanner is effortless - there is nothing to it.  What is far more time consuming is learning how to get the best use out of VueScan, but there are lots of YouTube videos on how to do that.  I watched a lot of them.  You can also put VueScan in "beginner mode" where it makes most of the decisions, and you will most likely get adequate results, but if you've taken the time to learn how to use your Leica, you most likely want to get the best results from the scanner.

Cleaning your negatives, and then any removing dust on the scans, is one of the most time consuming things.  

 

Maybe you can check with BHPhoto.com and see if they ship to Australia?

[Steve Ricoh]

6 hours ago, grahamc said:

Thanks for this !  Sorry for the lat reply also, I forgot to check back in in this area of the forum 

It sounds like the perfect solution for what I need.

Slight problem is there seems to be a huge backlog of orders here in Australia and none in the country currently - I better get on the hunt for one as I want to scan a project over Xmas .

How long do you think it would take to get up to speed for a beginner?  Also is there a 'basic' set of settings you would put forward (that differ fro the defaults) considering you are further down the journey ?  I've also saved a bunch of links that yourself and others posted in these chats (YouTube etc) so I can check those out as well 

I plan to use Vuescan.  The only issue is I'm trying to make a little book so I'll need to get to a decent / acceptable scan quite quickly .  The reason I am taking the plunge is that buying this scanner will cost the same $$ as it would cost me to have the 50 images for the book scanned at my lab.  I just hope I can get up to speed reasonably quickly

Thanks again 

G 

With Silverfast there’s an auto setting (called ‘Pilot’ or similar - something to do with the creator / owner’s previous occupation as an airline pilot). If you use this whilst learning about the manual mode you will have very acceptable output within 1/2 hour of unpacking.

[grahamc]

3 minutes ago, Steve Ricoh said:

With Silverfast there’s an auto setting (called ‘Pilot’ or similar - something to do with the creator / owner’s previous occupation as an airline pilot). If you use this whilst learning about the manual mode you will have very acceptable output within 1/2 hour of unpacking.

Ah great ! I located one locally by chance this afternoon. Thanks for this

[Steve Ricoh]

48 minutes ago, grahamc said:

Ah great ! I located one locally by chance this afternoon. Thanks for this

Great - with Silverfast, I guess.

Some software tags the computer hardware to the software. If it refuses to run you could email Silverfast Customer Services and explain.

PS I think the auto setting is called ‘Autopilot‘. You’ll see a symbol of an aeroplane when you start the S/W.
BTW, Always turn the scanner on before attempting to start the S/W.

[MikeMyers]

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Silverfast was included with my Plustek, but I think that's why I paid $500 rather than $400.  If you got Silverfast along with your Plustek, there's probably no need to purchase VueScan, unless you like it more.  For me, one was an unknown, and the other I've been using for years on my flat bed scanner.  VueScan can be very simple - I installed Silverfast, but haven't yet tried it.

If your Plustek did come with Silverfast, you get a DVD for Silverfast 8.  If you go to the Silverfast website, you'll find a free upgrade from 8 to 9, but after some amount of time that offer expires, so you should do so as soon as possible.  

Nobody has yet said one is better than the other, but I'm in no hurry to change.

[grahamc]

Thanks @MikeMyers & @Steve Ricoh

yes it’s coming with Silverfast - presumably the latest version (or at least a free upgrade to it) as it’s the latest package (Ai) which is all they had. The less expensive package (same hardware of course) would’ve cost me more by the time I got it to Aus.  I was really lucky to find one as the last time I checked (2 weeks ago) the store that was going to put my name down said I would be #42 on their back order list ! Crazy huh.  
 

from the scan-reading (excuse the pun 🙄) I did of threads on this, I was left with the impression that people generally favoured vuescan over silver fast but I’m sure either will be absolutely fine.   Appreciate the heads up about Pilot mode Steve also 
 

I’ll get into some reading and YouTube as it will be 2 weeks until it arrives - we currently have courier delays as only just came out of Covid lockdown. 
 

mike I think I saved some links that you mentioned in other posts. 
 

if there is anything particularly essential reading or viewing I’d appreciate a reminder of  if you have chance to post them here.  Otherwise I’ll have a read through the histories and start getting a bit of a tutorial resource together. 
 

I also expect this is one of those thjngs which seems a little daunting but then isn’t when you get into it 

[grahamc]

Also by cleaning the negatives do you mean brushing off with an anti static brush ? Or something more ? 
 

ive bought some gloves and a brush so should be ready to go 

Edited October 30, 2021 by grahamc

[MikeMyers]

An anti-static brush is essential, and in my opinion, so is a "rocket blower", like you might use to clean the sensor.  B&H Photo sells some kind of anti-static wiping cloth that I bought, and I found it very useful on some of my old negatives that never were stored properly half a century ago, before I knew better.  I haven't been using gloves - but I only touch the negatives by the edges.  I know I "should" use gloves. 

There's a ton of advice all over the internet on how to scan - I learned the most from responses to my post on the DxO forum about scanning.  My original advice was to create dull low-contrast scans, but then people were urging me to match the scan settings in the histogram to get the best scans.  That seemed more logical.  

It's all "free" - take one negative, and scan it all sorts of different ways to see the differences.  I found most of the VueScan settings to be very intuitive, and remember to save your settings for future use.  

I doubt if anyone else did this, but I printed out a copy of ALL of my settings, and worked with that until I understood what the settings did.  When finished, I saved it for "next time".  I ended up with one set of settings for B&W, and I started to work on color, but I found I was most interested in B&W.  Since then I've bought some color negative film, but haven't tried any yet.  I wanted to be using my M3, but it's still off getting cleaned and lubricated, so for me it's a choice of my M2 or my Nikon F4 (I found shooting the F4 to be much more enjoyable, for the types of photos I've been taking.)

SilverFast is installed on my computer - I guess at some point I'll watch some videos, and try it out.  On the other hand, VueScan is like putting on a pair of old but comfortable shoes.

Another very useful accessory by the way is a small "light box" so you can view your negatives.  I bought one from B&H - very handy.  I also downloaded a Kodak app for my iPhone that shows my negatives as positives, so I can tell who is who, and relate better to the negatives.

[Steve Ricoh]

On 10/30/2021 at 3:14 AM, grahamc said:

Thanks @MikeMyers & @Steve Ricoh

yes it’s coming with Silverfast - presumably the latest version (or at least a free upgrade to it) as it’s the latest package (Ai) which is all they had. The less expensive package (same hardware of course) would’ve cost me more by the time I got it to Aus.  I was really lucky to find one as the last time I checked (2 weeks ago) the store that was going to put my name down said I would be #42 on their back order list ! Crazy huh.  
 

from the scan-reading (excuse the pun 🙄) I did of threads on this, I was left with the impression that people generally favoured vuescan over silver fast but I’m sure either will be absolutely fine.   Appreciate the heads up about Pilot mode Steve also 
 

I’ll get into some reading and YouTube as it will be 2 weeks until it arrives - we currently have courier delays as only just came out of Covid lockdown. 
 

mike I think I saved some links that you mentioned in other posts. 
 

if there is anything particularly essential reading or viewing I’d appreciate a reminder of  if you have chance to post them here.  Otherwise I’ll have a read through the histories and start getting a bit of a tutorial resource together. 
 

I also expect this is one of those thjngs which seems a little daunting but then isn’t when you get into it 

I purchased the recommended guide by Mark D Segal:

”Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8 SilverFast HDR”. Very helpful, 380 pages long.

It’s recommended by SilverFast, and from recollection cost about £30 at the time (2017 or 2018 when I purchased). 

Edited October 31, 2021 by Steve Ricoh

[MikeMyers]

If you buy something similar to this, it will make your scanning much easier.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1416812-REG/logan_electric_750218_a7a_slim_edge_light.html

Then search for "KODAK Mobile Film Scanner" - it's an app, for different mobile phones.  I downloaded the version for iPhone.

It's free, and will save you a lot of time and show you a positive image of your b&w or color negatives.  Works great with the "light box" I bought.

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[250swb]

On 10/30/2021 at 3:31 AM, MikeMyers said:

 My original advice was to create dull low-contrast scans, but then people were urging me to match the scan settings in the histogram to get the best scans.  That seemed more logical.  

 

The scanning software is not powerful post processing software and it is not as accurate as a histogram in Lightroom. The idea of a low contrast scan without any clipping is that you use far more powerful post processing software to adjust contrast etc. From one low contrast scan you can produce many variations as your taste changes and skill improves. Taking the white and black points in the scanning software to the edges of the histogram simply introduces more digital noise because the scanner has a relatively low dynamic range, far less than the potential DR of your negative. So keeping the scan well within the range of the scanner by having a flat scan means all the information is usable and very little of it is noise.

[wlaidlaw]

3 hours ago, 250swb said:

The scanning software is not powerful post processing software and it is not as accurate as a histogram in Lightroom. The idea of a low contrast scan without any clipping is that you use far more powerful post processing software to adjust contrast etc. From one low contrast scan you can produce many variations as your taste changes and skill improves. Taking the white and black points in the scanning software to the edges of the histogram simply introduces more digital noise because the scanner has a relatively low dynamic range, far less than the potential DR of your negative. So keeping the scan well within the range of the scanner by having a flat scan means all the information is usable and very little of it is noise.

Maybe that is why I prefer scanning with a high quality digital camera. 

Wilson

[MikeMyers]

4 hours ago, 250swb said:

Taking the white and black points in the scanning software to the edges of the histogram simply introduces more digital noise because the scanner has a relatively low dynamic range, far less than the potential DR of your negative. So keeping the scan well within the range of the scanner by having a flat scan means all the information is usable and very little of it is noise.

I used to follow the advice to keep the scanned image very "flat" - it came out a light gray, and that would be corrected in my PhotoLab software.  Then someone suggested I would be better off in adjusting the scanning "end points" a little closer, so I would still end up with a "flat" image, but there was less work for PhotoLab to have to do.  Or, to exaggerate, if I tried to make the image perfect in VueScan, as you wrote my image software wold do the better, but if I made the image too flat, PhotoLab would have a better "starting point" to work from.  

What you've written about 'noise' makes me wonder about this all over again, but I have been very pleased with my "compromise", which does look a little "flat", and which PhotoLab allows me to create the image I'm aiming for in my mind.  

I guess there are lots of ways to do this, including setting up a camera to photograph my negatives, but to me, that introduces a lot of new variables.  I suppose I should try the camera method and compare it to my Plustek scans, and see what differences, if any, there are.

[grahamc]

On 10/30/2021 at 1:31 PM, MikeMyers said:

An anti-static brush is essential, and in my opinion, so is a "rocket blower", like you might use to clean the sensor.  B&H Photo sells some kind of anti-static wiping cloth that I bought, and I found it very useful on some of my old negatives that never were stored properly half a century ago, before I knew better.  I haven't been using gloves - but I only touch the negatives by the edges.  I know I "should" use gloves. 

There's a ton of advice all over the internet on how to scan - I learned the most from responses to my post on the DxO forum about scanning.  My original advice was to create dull low-contrast scans, but then people were urging me to match the scan settings in the histogram to get the best scans.  That seemed more logical.  

It's all "free" - take one negative, and scan it all sorts of different ways to see the differences.  I found most of the VueScan settings to be very intuitive, and remember to save your settings for future use.  

I doubt if anyone else did this, but I printed out a copy of ALL of my settings, and worked with that until I understood what the settings did.  When finished, I saved it for "next time".  I ended up with one set of settings for B&W, and I started to work on color, but I found I was most interested in B&W.  Since then I've bought some color negative film, but haven't tried any yet.  I wanted to be using my M3, but it's still off getting cleaned and lubricated, so for me it's a choice of my M2 or my Nikon F4 (I found shooting the F4 to be much more enjoyable, for the types of photos I've been taking.)

SilverFast is installed on my computer - I guess at some point I'll watch some videos, and try it out.  On the other hand, VueScan is like putting on a pair of old but comfortable shoes.

Another very useful accessory by the way is a small "light box" so you can view your negatives.  I bought one from B&H - very handy.  I also downloaded a Kodak app for my iPhone that shows my negatives as positives, so I can tell who is who, and relate better to the negatives.

Yes it’s interesting about the “flat” scans versus something that resembles a final product. Here in sydney I use 2 dev labs .... one gives you really flat scans which I can only assume are “neutral” so that the photographer can add their own accent in post.  The scans quality is great but visually I don’t find them pleasing. The other lab I use obviously tweaks the settings in the scanner and to me they deliver a final product more or less - they are much more contrasty but are very close to my own editing style. 
 

so I guess the beauty of doing this at home is you can get over time a recipe of preferred scan settings to cut down on post production , perhaps.  Or am I thinking about this wrong ? 
 

I guess the workflow of a flat / neutral scan enables more flexibility in post but every image would be starting from scratch and would perhaps be more post production 

[grahamc]

9 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

If you buy something similar to this, it will make your scanning much easier.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1416812-REG/logan_electric_750218_a7a_slim_edge_light.html

Then search for "KODAK Mobile Film Scanner" - it's an app, for different mobile phones.  I downloaded the version for iPhone.

It's free, and will save you a lot of time and show you a positive image of your b&w or color negatives.  Works great with the "light box" I bought.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Great. Excuse my ignorance but what’s the purpose of this step ? Presumably to check out your negatives and see which ones you want to put your hard-earned scanning time into, rather than scanning negs you don’t end up liking  ? So it’s proofing the image in a really basic way ?

[grahamc]

8 hours ago, 250swb said:

The scanning software is not powerful post processing software and it is not as accurate as a histogram in Lightroom. The idea of a low contrast scan without any clipping is that you use far more powerful post processing software to adjust contrast etc. From one low contrast scan you can produce many variations as your taste changes and skill improves. Taking the white and black points in the scanning software to the edges of the histogram simply introduces more digital noise because the scanner has a relatively low dynamic range, far less than the potential DR of your negative. So keeping the scan well within the range of the scanner by having a flat scan means all the information is usable and very little of it is noise.

Ah yes.  I hadn’t considered this.   Especially with Lightroom being non-destructive you would always have that flat hi res scan the same way you have a flat raw coming out of camera.  
 

in the example I gave above of a local lab giving very neutral / flat scans ... the frustrating thing is that they are proof JPEG size only also, so there’s no latitude in editing. 
 

I can see that when you are home scanning then that would change. 
 

 

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[grahamc]

4 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

I used to follow the advice to keep the scanned image very "flat" - it came out a light gray, and that would be corrected in my PhotoLab software.  Then someone suggested I would be better off in adjusting the scanning "end points" a little closer, so I would still end up with a "flat" image, but there was less work for PhotoLab to have to do.  Or, to exaggerate, if I tried to make the image perfect in VueScan, as you wrote my image software wold do the better, but if I made the image too flat, PhotoLab would have a better "starting point" to work from.  

What you've written about 'noise' makes me wonder about this all over again, but I have been very pleased with my "compromise", which does look a little "flat", and which PhotoLab allows me to create the image I'm aiming for in my mind.  

I guess there are lots of ways to do this, including setting up a camera to photograph my negatives, but to me, that introduces a lot of new variables.  I suppose I should try the camera method and compare it to my Plustek scans, and see what differences, if any, there are.

I guess the beauty of doing all of this at home gives us options.  
not knowing how things will pan out when o get going with this I suspect I may have a “favourite” recipe in terms of black and white points etc that I use for quick scans to save time (much like the example of the second lab I mentioned).   This could be a proofing process and good enough for the majority of my images perhaps and lends to quicker tweaks in post 
 

But if I am working on an image I particularly like an image or if it’s for a specific purpose maybe a higher-res and flat / neutral scan and start from scratch in post production with a more involved process. 
 

Perhaps 🤔 

Edited October 31, 2021 by grahamc

[MikeMyers]

1 hour ago, grahamc said:

Great. Excuse my ignorance but what’s the purpose of this step ? Presumably to check out your negatives and see which ones you want to put your hard-earned scanning time into, rather than scanning negs you don’t end up liking  ? So it’s proofing the image in a really basic way ?

Exactly.  Word for word, what you wrote.  Saves a lot of wasted time working on images that I don't like.