Black paint and re-paints

[tranquilo67]

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Hi all,

During last months (or may be a couple of years), I'm seeing a lot of re-painted Leica cameras and lenses. The repaint fever seems stronger than ever. I can see it mainly in M cameras (M3, M2 and M4) but also some lenses (rigid summicron) or even screw mount cameras (IIIf and IIIg) and in some cases, the repaint even includes an artificial brassing. They command something like twice the price of original chromed but quite less than those originally painted in black.

I know that repaint is not new, but with current techniques it's becoming harder to differentiate originals from reworked (at least for me) without checking serial numbers that, in some cases, are not 100% accurate.

So, am I the only one that, with this repaint mood, finds the black paint (including original ones) a bit less desirable than some time ago? (Somehow less sexy due to be more widely available). May be, the exception are the old I, II and III in black-nickel, that to my eyes, still keep the same attractive than ever.

During the last months, I've got a new M4 and an M5. I had a look at the black chromed or black painted M4's but I found tedious to check serial numbers etc. and at the end, I've gone for a humble chrome M4 (with a nice small Cattaneo badge) and a "50 Jahre" M5 with it's rear code (BTW, I've seen several without the rear code, what appears at least suspicious to my eye). Both in very good condition and both are what they are. No doubts and not pretending to be something that they aren't.

So beyond the introduction of my new cameras, I'd like to know your opinion about original black paint and re-paint specially nowadays.

Best wishes and stay safe,

Augusto

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Edited June 22, 2021 by tranquilo67

[pgk]

11 minutes ago, tranquilo67 said:

During the last months, I've got a new M4 and an M5. I had a look at the black chromed or black painted M4's but I found tedious to check serial numbers etc. and at the end, I've gone for a humble chrome M4 (with a nice small Cattaneo badge)

Oddly enough I have a black paint M4 with the Cattaneo badge! Mine is correct in tems of serial number and its delivery date is correct ( checked with Leica) and so on.

A repainted camera will probably have been serviced so the repaint (which is not cheap) should have included the cost of a full service. To be done in such a way as to look 'authentic' the chrome will have been removed, any damage (dents, scratches, etc.) made good, and then an appropriate paint will have been applied. My very loose guess is that this will have doubled to original cost of the camera and prices are trying to reflect this. Personally I don't think that they can because a repaint (which is being sold as such) is far less desirable than on original camera. Although there are some who will be happy to own a none original camera I suspect that they are something of a minority.

If the repaint has been carried out in order to produce a 'fake' - that is to sell the camera as an original rather than repaint, then I would say that the serial number would also have to be changed because an out of sequence serial number, whilst possible, is always going to be more suspicious than a 'correct' one. 'Faking' a camera is still going to cost double the price of a normal camera so getting a substantial profit from it as a 'fake' is probably not so easy. Personally I don't see forged cameras being a terribly profitable activity for anyone wanting to make money in this way. So say an original chrome M4 is worth say €1000, a good repaint and service is another €1000, making its cost €2000, then to be viable and get a good black paint M4 price (say €3-4000) it would need to be 'correct' in every way and its serial number should be appropriate or it will be suspicious. Is the profut worth it. I think that anyone able to service and repaint such a camera to this standard will have enough honest work on hand to make 'faking' and its consequences simply not worthwhile.

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[Charles Morgan]

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I've toyed with it, but none of my Ms need a service (which would be the logical time to think about it) and it's money that I'd rather spend on other things. I have a nicely patinated black Leica III anyway.

Chacun a son gout.

[luigi bertolotti]

In general I have always thought that the "heat" about some black bodies and the high prices fetched onto at auctions (I think expecially on some M3 and M2s too) is hardly logical... in my opinion (separated by my personal love for any chrome item 😁) a rare - uncommon body, be it a M2S or a IIIck is much more interesting than a standard body which has only finishing as distinguishing - even if original : but that's me  (to say... at the same cost I'd like much more to have a 250 than a M3 black original). For lovers of blacks, I think that a finely repainted body is a nice to have : personally, some years ago I gave my very worn standard M2 to a Forum member who worked on it to achieve a classy mint black M2, who i think that someone was happy to buy  (of course, fully declared as a rework)

 

[tranquilo67]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

Oddly enough I have a black paint M4 with the Cattaneo badge! Mine is correct in tems of serial number and its delivery date is correct ( checked with Leica) and so on.

A repainted camera will probably have been serviced so the repaint (which is not cheap) should have included the cost of a full service. To be done in such a way as to look 'authentic' the chrome will have been removed, any damage (dents, scratches, etc.) made good, and then an appropriate paint will have been applied. My very loose guess is that this will have doubled to original cost of the camera and prices are trying to reflect this. Personally I don't think that they can because a repaint (which is being sold as such) is far less desirable than on original camera. Although there are some who will be happy to own a none original camera I suspect that they are something of a minority.

If the repaint has been carried out in order to produce a 'fake' - that is to sell the camera as an original rather than repaint, then I would say that the serial number would also have to be changed because an out of sequence serial number, whilst possible, is always going to be more suspicious than a 'correct' one. 'Faking' a camera is still going to cost double the price of a normal camera so getting a substantial profit from it as a 'fake' is probably not so easy. Personally I don't see forged cameras being a terribly profitable activity for anyone wanting to make money in this way. So say an original chrome M4 is worth say €1000, a good repaint and service is another €1000, making its cost €2000, then to be viable and get a good black paint M4 price (say €3-4000) it would need to be 'correct' in every way and its serial number should be appropriate or it will be suspicious. Is the profut worth it. I think that anyone able to service and repaint such a camera to this standard will have enough honest work on hand to make 'faking' and its consequences simply not worthwhile.

Hi,

My point was more in the sense of "rarity" of a nice non-frequent camera like your M4, seems somehow "decaffeinated" with so many non original black paint M4 around (please don't take this as an offense). Of course, you know what you have and you value it, but my sensation is that it's not the same than some years ago.

And agree, most of the cases, we're not talking about fakes. They're clearly stated as repainted. And also agree that a proper repaint is not a trivial work and means a nice amount of money, but to have something at the end that is neither original black paint nor their original chrome finish.

In other words, if you don't mind the finish, why not to keep the original one? Or, if you really mind, go for the real thing. At the end I have the sensation of trying to show something that it isn't.

[pgk]

21 minutes ago, tranquilo67 said:

My point was more in the sense of "rarity" of a nice non-frequent camera like your M4, seems somehow "decaffeinated" with so many non original black paint M4 around (please don't take this as an offense). Of course, you know what you have and you value it, but my sensation is that it's not the same than some years ago.

And agree, most of the cases, we're not talking about fakes. They're clearly stated as repainted. And also agree that a proper repaint is not a trivial work and means a nice amount of money, but to have something at the end that is neither original black paint nor their original chrome finish.

In other words, if you don't mind the finish, why not to keep the original one? Or, if you really mind, go for the real thing. At the end I have the sensation of trying to show something that it isn't.

Depends. For collectors, originality is mostly all important. For users it isn't, or at least it is less so or might be if they like a specific finish and aren't bothered about originality. So there is a crossover. But I don't think that it in any way impacts on the original black paint cameras. If anything prices have gone up for original despite more repaints being available (of varying quality!), indicating perhaps that there is an even greater interest in the originals from photographers who both use them and enjoy their originality. I errr, sort of fit in this category although I dislike having/owning gear that I don't use, so I'm not really a 'collector' as such but an interested user (ish).

[250swb]

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32 minutes ago, tranquilo67 said:

 

In other words, if you don't mind the finish, why not to keep the original one? Or, if you really mind, go for the real thing. At the end I have the sensation of trying to show something that it isn't.

There are more red Ferrari's in the world than were ever painted red in the factory, but it's still a Ferrari.

[pedaes]

1 hour ago, luigi bertolotti said:

In general I have always thought that the "heat" about some black bodies and the high prices fetched onto at auctions (I think expecially on some M3 and M2s too) is hardly logical.

Agree. The market for original 'BP' M's seems to be driven by HK collectors. They even have a book (which is nearly the price of a (chrome) camera) https://f22cameras.com/en/black-paint-leica-book

[pgk]

1 hour ago, luigi bertolotti said:

In general I have always thought that the "heat" about some black bodies and the high prices fetched onto at auctions (I think expecially on some M3 and M2s too) is hardly logical...

But collecting isn't logical so this makes as good sense as anything else😁.

[Matlock]

48 minutes ago, pedaes said:

Agree. The market for original 'BP' M's seems to be driven by HK collectors. They even have a book (which is nearly the price of a (chrome) camera) https://f22cameras.com/en/black-paint-leica-book

So you are saying that a chrome M costs around £110?

[Guest]

vor 53 Minuten schrieb 250swb:

There are more red Ferrari's in the world than were ever painted red in the factory, but it's still a Ferrari.

No, I won't show again my image of a red painted Leica M3, seen at Leica Store Frankfurt.
Some months ago I noticed a green M2 and a yellow M? on ebay.
About twenty years or more ago, a Munich Leica dealer offered a shiny violet M4 for an at that time quite low price, because Leica refused to service such an ugly painted camera.
There will always be some roosters that want to adorn themselves with particularly beautiful or at least rare feathers.
But if you should be offered a real Leica for lefties, then buy it as an object of speculation, no matter what color it is.😀

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[pedaes]

8 minutes ago, Matlock said:

So you are saying that a chrome M costs around £110?

Poetic license - I am saying nothing! 😉

[Matlock]

Just now, pedaes said:

Poetic license - I am saying nothing! 😉

HK$1200 = around £110. 🙂

[pedaes]

Just now, Matlock said:

HK$1200 = around £110. 🙂

I know, as I said...

[pippy]

3 hours ago, tranquilo67 said:

...if you don't mind the finish, why not to keep the original one? Or, if you really mind, go for the real thing...

It's hardly as simple as that, Tranquilo, at least in financial terms. A re-finished 'Black-Paint' M2 can be found pretty much any day of the week for around £2,500. An original B-P in decent condition seems to cost somewhere upwards of £25,000. Many people could stretch to - and even justify - the first sum; the second sum? Not so much.

Personally I like both looks. I've always loved Black-Paint Leicas and can certainly see the attraction of a re-paint but it's not something I'd consider for my own M2 and I actively hunted-down a chrome-finish M Monochrom. The only ones I don't really...erm...fully appreciate are the 'Panda' and Safari versions.

Having my SharkSkin IIIc redone as a B-P, though, might be a tempting prospect; the re-fin would also get rid of all that poor quality pitted chrome at the same time...

Going off-Leica for a moment; as is fairly well-known the post-WWII range of Kiev copies of the pre-WWII Contax cameras were never released in any finish other than chrome yet I happen to have a pair which, obviously, are re-paints and I think they look fantastic!

Philip.

[tranquilo67]

1 minute ago, pippy said:

It's hardly as simple as that, Tranquilo, at least in financial terms. A re-finished 'Black-Paint' M2 can be found pretty much any day of the week for around £2,500. An original B-P in decent condition seems to cost somewhere upwards of £25,000. Many people could stretch to - and even justify - the first sum; the second sum? Not so much.

Personally I like both looks. I've always loved Black-Paint Leicas and can certainly see the attraction of a re-paint but it's not something I'd consider for my own M2 and I actively hunted-down a chrome-finish M Monochrom. The only ones I don't really...erm...fully appreciate are the 'Panda' and Safari versions.

Having my SharkSkin IIIc redone as a B-P, though, might be a tempting prospect; the re-fin would also get rid of all that poor quality pitted chrome at the same time...

Going off-Leica for a moment; as is fairly well-known the post-WWII range of Kiev copies of the pre-WWII Contax cameras were never released in any finish other than chrome yet I happen to have a pair which, obviously, are re-paints and I think they look fantastic!

Philip.

Sure!! May be the point would be to know how many change them because the like the black color or how many change that because what a BP means.

I received a (really out-of-date) education where to be, was more important than to show so, from my (once more outdated) perspective, the important point is to have something extraordinary (evident or not), more than to show something extraordinary (authentic or not).

[tranquilo67]

3 hours ago, 250swb said:

There are more red Ferrari's in the world than were ever painted red in the factory, but it's still a Ferrari.

Sure!! But it's not exactly the same a "Rosso Corsa" Ferrari (or "Guards Red" Porsche) than a "Solid Red" BMW (or Ferrari painted in such color). Isn't it?

 

[pippy]

25 minutes ago, tranquilo67 said:

Sure!! May be the point would be to know how many change them because the like the black color or how many change that because what a BP means.

...from my perspective the important point is to have something extraordinary (evident or not), more than to show something extraordinary (authentic or not).

OK; I understand.

Yes; some folks choose a Black Paint body simply because they like the look and feel of B-P; some choose a B-P because of the Rarity-Value - real or 'perceived' - of their camera and there will undoubtedly be others (the majority?) who are a bit of a mixture of both these camps.

Personally, being wholly self-centred as far as my cameras are concerned, I'm planted very solidly in the first-mentioned group.

Philip.

Edited June 22, 2021 by pippy

[pedaes]

6 minutes ago, pippy said:

simply because they like the look and feel of B-P

Can understand that, and better than 'pitted chrome' which would be expensive to re-chrome, even if it could be done.

Are we talking about actual paint though. The finish described by one rated refinisher talks about 'as used on firearms' which sounds more like powder coating. That said, I have had car bits gloss powder coated and it feels and looks like paint, but may not naturally 'brass' very quickly.

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[pippy]

17 minutes ago, pedaes said:

...Are we talking about actual paint though. The finish described by one rated refinisher talks about 'as used on firearms' which sounds more like powder coating...

The sites I've seen all talk about baking the paint on to the de-chromed brass shell / parts.

There has been one mention I've noticed where the dealership (in the link below) refers to 'occasional' use of fire-arm paint - perhaps the same one you have seen - but the normal Black Paint (or whichever colour one fancies) process is quite complex as detailed here on the Cameraworks-UK site;

https://www.cameraworks-uk.com/re-paint-process

As an aside; a few years ago Red Dot Cameras in London were offering an M Monochrom which had been heavily 'worked-on' (polished?) which had the end result of making the top- and base-plates of the camera resemble Gun-metal in its appearance. In its own way it was rather a handsome thing!

Philip.

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by pippy