# 165 Leica i

[frame-it]

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wonder if it still works properly

 

https://kosmofoto.com/2021/05/ernst-leitz-juniors-own-leica-i-selling-at-auction-next-month/

 

>>>>>

A Leica I camera once owned by the son of Leica founder Ernst Leitz is up for sale at auction in Austria next month.

The Leica I is thought to have been presented to Ernst Leitz II in December 1924, possibly as a Christmas present.

It is going under the hammer at the 38^th Leitz Photographica Auction in Vienna, Austria on 12 June.

The camera has a starting price of €40,000 (£34,420/$48,850) and is expected to sell for between 80,000 and €100,000.

The camera is of particular interest to Leica collectors because Leitz Junior was in charge of the company when it brought the first Leica rangefinder camera into production.

Leitz Photographica says: “Extensive research in Leica archives revealed that exactly this Leica no.165 was delivered on 24.12.1924 to Ernst Leitz Junior. We can only speculate that it may have been a Christmas gift. A closer inspection of the page from the delivery book reveals that the initial date written on the top of the page ‘1924’ has been later changed to 1925.

“Camera no.165 is the only one from the batch delivered in December; all the others have been delivered in June or February. This may indicate that it was the first Leica I Mod. A delivered, at the end of 1924.

“Factory service records show that the camera was in the workshop on three occasions and was upgraded several times to the final form we can see now.” The camera comes with an Elmar 50/3.5 lens, an accessory Fodis rangefinder and a pair of film spools.

According to Leitz Photographica, the only other significant camera known to be given to Leitz Junior was the Leica 0-Series no.102.

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[luigi bertolotti]

Probable that it works... such an historical item has been surely inspected and cleaned by a knowledged technician... and Leica I is rather easy to fix by such people : it was, as most of succesful and ingeniuos products, a simple and "conceived to be maintainable" device.

I'll surely attend the auction... it's the first time I have an item of mine publicily auctioned 😎 (not this camera, of course...)

 

[willeica]

5 hours ago, frame-it said:

wonder if it still works properly

 

https://kosmofoto.com/2021/05/ernst-leitz-juniors-own-leica-i-selling-at-auction-next-month/

 

>>>>>

A Leica I camera once owned by the son of Leica founder Ernst Leitz is up for sale at auction in Austria next month.

The Leica I is thought to have been presented to Ernst Leitz II in December 1924, possibly as a Christmas present.

It is going under the hammer at the 38^th Leitz Photographica Auction in Vienna, Austria on 12 June.

The camera has a starting price of €40,000 (£34,420/$48,850) and is expected to sell for between 80,000 and €100,000.

The camera is of particular interest to Leica collectors because Leitz Junior was in charge of the company when it brought the first Leica rangefinder camera into production.

Leitz Photographica says: “Extensive research in Leica archives revealed that exactly this Leica no.165 was delivered on 24.12.1924 to Ernst Leitz Junior. We can only speculate that it may have been a Christmas gift. A closer inspection of the page from the delivery book reveals that the initial date written on the top of the page ‘1924’ has been later changed to 1925.

“Camera no.165 is the only one from the batch delivered in December; all the others have been delivered in June or February. This may indicate that it was the first Leica I Mod. A delivered, at the end of 1924.

“Factory service records show that the camera was in the workshop on three occasions and was upgraded several times to the final form we can see now.” The camera comes with an Elmar 50/3.5 lens, an accessory Fodis rangefinder and a pair of film spools.

According to Leitz Photographica, the only other significant camera known to be given to Leitz Junior was the Leica 0-Series no.102.

The purchaser will not really have this as their major issue. This one is all about provenance which seems to have been well recorded.

3 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

Probable that it works... such an historical item has been surely inspected and cleaned by a knowledged technician... and Leica I is rather easy to fix by such people : it was, as most of succesful and ingeniuos products, a simple and "conceived to be maintainable" device.

I'll surely attend the auction... it's the first time I have an item of mine publicily auctioned 😎 (not this camera, of course...)

 

I was invited to attend, but I won't be able to go for obvious reasons. I have written an article about No 165 and other significant lots in this auction and I will link it here when it appears. Good luck with your item, Luigi.

William 

[luigi bertolotti]

Well... I will attend... but not phisycally... 🙄

[willeica]

21 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

Well... I will attend... but not phisycally... 🙄

Likewise, Luigi. I will be online from Dublin.

William 

[jerzy]

funny.... last September a Gentleman from UK send me photos of this camera asking for remote expertise. Camera was heavily converted, possibly nothing from original camera left. And seeing a copy of delivery record it is very probable that is was December 1924....

[jerzy]

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to avoid mnissunderstandig - I do not say this canera is faked or replica. Parts used on this canera are in line with the dates in the repair record of Leitz

[luigi bertolotti]

9 hours ago, jerzy said:

to avoid mnissunderstandig - I do not say this canera is faked or replica. Parts used on this canera are in line with the dates in the repair record of Leitz

OK... and the auctioneers' description indeed specifies that "was upgraded several times"... not that i plan to make an offer for it... 😁 , but your opinion is reassuring about the seriousness of the Auction House...

[willeica]

11 hours ago, jerzy said:

to avoid mnissunderstandig - I do not say this canera is faked or replica. Parts used on this canera are in line with the dates in the repair record of Leitz

 

2 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

OK... and the auctioneers' description indeed specifies that "was upgraded several times"... not that i plan to make an offer for it... 😁 , but your opinion is reassuring about the seriousness of the Auction House...

This camera was modified several times in a way that would be obvious to any serious collector eg shutter button. It is also carrying a later lens with coating. The camera is being sold by (although on whose behalf is not exactly clear) the current owners of the 'House of Leitz' who have access to all of the details of the original delivery and the subsequent modifications. I am sure that any purchaser of this item could be provided with the relevant documentation.

William

[luigi bertolotti]

17 minutes ago, willeica said:

 

This camera was modified several times in a way that would be obvious to any serious collector ...

William

Yep, that's clear... btw, the lens looks interchangable.... and probably even standard..  Who knows where is gone its original Anastigmat ? 😎 difficult to relate it to this camera... but would be a lucky finding... 😉

Edited May 23, 2021 by luigi bertolotti

[willeica]

2 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

Yep, that's clear... btw, the lens looks interchangable.... and probably even standard..  Who knows where is gone its original Anastigmat ? 😎 difficult to relate it to this camera... but would be a lucky finding... 😉

The main point about this camera is its provenance rather than any notion of 'original condition'. The former in this case probably trumps the latter. The market will determine this on the 12th of June next. 

William 

[wlaidlaw]

Should it not have a hockey stick and surely they could have found an 11 o'clock nickel Elmar or an Elmax to compliment the body. IMHO if someone pays €40,000 + commission for this, they need their head examining. 

Wilson

[willeica]

On 5/25/2021 at 5:35 PM, wlaidlaw said:

Should it not have a hockey stick and surely they could have found an 11 o'clock nickel Elmar or an Elmax to compliment the body. IMHO if someone pays €40,000 + commission for this, they need their head examining. 

Wilson

Wilson, the whole point about this camera is its provenance and not the camera per se. The camera has been properly described and, as I indicated, the camera is clearly not original which anyone with a good knowledge of vintage Leicas would easily spot. I am about to start a new thread with a link to my article, published today, on some of the highlights of the forthcoming auction, including this camera , of course. It seems that, based on the evidence, this was the very first Leica I ever delivered and it was delivered in 1924 to the man who made the decision to make the Leica camera. I'm not sure that you could want any better provenance than that. 

William

 

[wlaidlaw]

William, 

I hear what you say but in my mind this makes as much sense as buying the text of a tweet as a Non-Fungible Token. You are buying the idea of the camera it would have been and not the actual camera as it is now, if you get my drift. I am probably being too mechanistic on this but Leica Auctions will not be getting any of my money for this item.

Wilson

[willeica]

5 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

William, 

I hear what you say but in my mind this makes as much sense as buying the text of a tweet as a Non-Fungible Token. You are buying the idea of the camera it would have been and not the actual camera as it is now, if you get my drift. I am probably being too mechanistic on this but Leica Auctions will not be getting any of my money for this item.

Wilson

Wilson, you are thinking about the camera as an artefact, not as a piece of history. 

I'll leave it there.

William 

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

This idea of "provenance" being a determining factor is usual in the Antiques & Art Market. The question is: Did Rembrandt, or his neighbor down the street at the same time paint the painting. Not: Who was the better artist.

A "not so great" Rembrandt painting sells for a lot more than the better painting by his not so famous contemporary neighbor. Since having been verifiably painted by Rembrandt is the criteria that is used to determine value.

The same thing here: Having been verified as the camera given to Ernst Leitz II, who subsequently had it modified: Is the determining factor in evaluating this camera. The +'s and -'s of any modification are not the issue. This camera is the equivalent of saying: "This is Rembrandt's first painting. Please notice that he changed some things later. But this is his first painting."

Best Regards,

Michael

[willeica]

13 hours ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Everybody,

This idea of "provenance" being a determining factor is usual in the Antiques & Art Market. The question is: Did Rembrandt, or his neighbor down the street at the same time paint the painting. Not: Who was the better artist.

A "not so great" Rembrandt painting sells for a lot more than the better painting by his not so famous contemporary neighbor. Since having been verifiably painted by Rembrandt is the criteria that is used to determine value.

The same thing here: Having been verified as the camera given to Ernst Leitz II, who subsequently had it modified: Is the determining factor in evaluating this camera. The +'s and -'s of any modification are not the issue. This camera is the equivalent of saying: "This is Rembrandt's first painting. Please notice that he changed some things later. But this is his first painting."

Best Regards,

Michael

Usually 'original condition' trumps 'upgraded', but in this case 'provenance' trumps everything. There is a graduated scale which I often give in articles about determining value, but in this case the 'rules' are broken as this is the very first delivery of a production Leica. Ernst Leitz II already had a 0 Series and the UR Leica was lying in his factory. In 1924 these items were not nearly as valuable as they are today. Post hoc rationalisation is a dangerous thing, but time usually adds value to historical objects.

William 

[wizard]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb Michael Geschlecht:

... the camera given to Ernst Leitz II, who subsequently had it modified. ...

Not even that is clear. It is clear that the camera was modified several times, but it is not clear that it was Ernst Leitz II, who had it modified (and the seller does not claim that it was him, i.e. Ernst Leitz II). So the only thing that would appear to be clear here is that Ernst Leitz II was given this camera at a certain point in time*. Whether he actually liked it, used it or just gave it to someone else after he had received it is unclear, as is the further fate of this camera from thereon. So most of today's attributed value is based on pure imagination. But I am sure there will be someone out there spending a more or less insane amount of money on this camera just to be able to tell people that "this was the camera Ernst Leitz II used for taking his photos". If it were a truly important piece of Leitz history, why are the 'House of Leitz' selling it, rather than trying to make it part of the Leica museum?

Andy

* On reading the auction details a little closer, it is stated that "The Leica I is thought to have been presented to Ernst Leitz II in December 1924, possibly as a Christmas present.", which means that the seller is not even sure of whether the camera was actually presented to Ernst Leitz II. So even more imagination here ..

I might as well say that my early M3 (which I no longer own) "is thought to have been tested by Ernst Leitz II" before being officially sold.

Edited May 28, 2021 by wizard

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[pedaes]

14 minutes ago, wizard said:

why are the 'House of Leitz' selling it,

Are they the vendors?

In the office (study) in Haus Friedart , the Leitz family home and now a Trust, there are a number of Leica cameras that may have been used by the family. Who knows, but they will not be coming to auction anytime soon.

[wizard]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb pedaes:

Are they the vendors?

That's what William said above in one of his posts.