Jono's Review: Leica Vario Elmarit SL 24-70 f2.8 ASPH

[BernardC]

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48 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

Can you share any links to show the exact specs of both? I can't find them.

Sigma 24-70 DG DN : "As extra-low dispersion glass materials, six sheets of “F” low dispersion (FLD) glass and two sheets of special low dispersion (SLD) glass are lavishly employed while taking advantage of an optical design dedicated for mirrorless lenses."

Sigma's lens has 8 "sheets" of low-dispersion glass (6 FLD + 2 SLD)

Leica 24-70: "These include three aspherical lens elements for the correction of monochromatic aberrations and nine elements made from glasses with anomalous partial dispersion for the correction of chromatic aberrations."

That's 9 for Leica's version.

That's all we know. At least one element is different, possibly more. That's why I suspect that it's a Sigma design. They generated several designs, and picked the one that best met their needs. Some designs performed better, but they would have lost money at a $1000 target price. It's just speculation on my part, I have no real insight (other than costing products in a different industry).

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[beewee]

Has anyone compared the optical design of the Leica/Sigma 24-70 and Leica 24-90? The front 7 elements are nearly identical.

I’ve mentioned this elsewhere before but I’ll repeat. Sigma has patents on lens design dating back to around 2010 that has nearly identical front 7 elements as well. That to me looks like even the 24-90 design was originated at least to some degree with Sigma. It has Sigma’s fingerprints all over it. It’s not to say it’s good or bad, it’s just what it is.

The other two SL zooms were licensed design from Panasonic and Konica-Minolta so it would not come as a surprise if the Leica 24-90 was a Sigma design as well.

 

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[2M6TTLs]

It is also a possibility that Sigma designed the optical configuration but it was actually manufactured by the same rather unknown Japanese company that makes the lenses for the CL. ( not Sigma, look it up!) Of course meeting Leica's tolerances and specs.The 18-56 for the CL is a quality lens.

Doesn't matter to me who makes it as long as it's a great lens (which by all accounts it is). Made in Japan is top notch quality and in these days of "Made in China" you usually pay quite a premium for Japanese manufacture. Historically the Japanese made Leica lenses of the past, even going back to the original CL have been nothing short of excellent.For this reason there is nothing to be ashamed of and I wish Leica would just come out and say who makes the lens.Drop the secrecy. No need for the mystery.

You can buy two Sigma 24-70's for the price of one Leica 24-70? 

Yes - but.... 

In the extremely humid and rainy climate I live in I prefer an all metal lens and weatherproofing. So I'd still empty my wallet, get the Leica and enjoy the "feel" and handling every time I use it. The only reason I would get the Sigma would simply be to save money because I couldn't afford the Leica one. Nothing wrong with that either.

 

 

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[Slender]

On 7/28/2021 at 11:17 PM, beewee said:

The other two SL zooms were licensed design from Panasonic and Konica-Minolta so it would not come as a surprise if the Leica 24-90 was a Sigma design as well.

Past the first 3 lenses from the front I see more differences than similitudes for respective proportions, positions (close or cemented together) and curves in that glass to be honest.

Besides, computer aided-design can only give you "so many" different formulas whether you run in from your PC in Germany, France or Japan... it's up to the human to add compromises to those "perfect" computer generated optical designs to reduce size/weight/cost and do the balancing act between this and the optical quality you are willing to make your targeted audience carry/pay for. That's why seemingly "perfect" lenses in the film industry are so expensive and large: they don't have to compromise at all.

I guess the desire besides the first two ever lenses Leica made for the SL were following that same principle: make it as good as currently possible: hence why they were the largest Leica ever made for 35mm.... and the SL601+24/90 and 50 1.4 was the most expensive 35mm Leica at launch.... probably the most expensive 35mm lenses as well outside limited ludicrous M lenses.

[beewee]

1 hour ago, Slender said:

I guess the desire besides the first two ever lenses Leica made for the SL were following that same principle: make it as good as currently possible: hence why they were the largest Leica ever made for 35mm.... and the SL601+24/90 and 50 1.4 was the most expensive 35mm Leica at launch.... probably the most expensive 35mm lenses as well outside limited ludicrous M lenses.

No doubt this is the entire design paradigm of the SL system. Peter Karbe has confirmed this in the past. It is a performance focused platform where size/weight constraints are secondary to performance and cost in order to achieve highest performance at a price point that the market will still accept. Peter Karbe himself has mentioned that although the S system as a whole delivers higher performance than the SL zooms, the APO Summicron SL primes supersedes the performance of the S system.

The SL APO primes will deliver medium format resolution in a 35mm image circle. So as sensor technology improves, we’ll see SL bodies that compete with medium format sensor resolution into the future. The main difference would be that medium format will generally have an advantage in dynamic range over 35mm given the same resolution and sensor technology.

[MITDelay]

On 7/29/2021 at 3:52 AM, BernardC said:

That's all we know. At least one element is different, possibly more. That's why I suspect that it's a Sigma design. They generated several designs, and picked the one that best met their needs. Some designs performed better, but they would have lost money at a $1000 target price. It's just speculation on my part, I have no real insight (other than costing products in a different industry).

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@BernardC : 10 more posts from you and that number exactly matches the price of what we are talking about!  LOL

[Alan J]

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I'm trying to justify the 24-90 for my SL, but somewhat new to Leica and the lens lineup (Current & Past).

My initial thought was, could I put together a lens line up of primes that might be lighter in weight and cover the approximate range from 24-90?

Still sifting through and cooking this all down. Know this means more lens swapping.

Leica means Leica to me, made in Germany actually has value and meaning also. Leica should prove It's not a Sigma. Something scientific,  surrounding facts, results, modifications or design that can be clearly be demonstrated to customers and seen as Leica and not Sigma Art.

Ok, I'm done, sorry I spent my daily 2 cents her all in one place.

[beewee]

1 hour ago, Alan J said:

I'm trying to justify the 24-90 for my SL, but somewhat new to Leica and the lens lineup (Current & Past).

My initial thought was, could I put together a lens line up of primes that might be lighter in weight and cover the approximate range from 24-90?

Still sifting through and cooking this all down. Know this means more lens swapping.

Leica means Leica to me, made in Germany actually has value and meaning also. Leica should prove It's not a Sigma. Something scientific,  surrounding facts, results, modifications or design that can be clearly be demonstrated to customers and seen as Leica and not Sigma Art.

Ok, I'm done, sorry I spent my daily 2 cents her all in one place.

As far as sharpness goes, the Sigma i-series primes are very good. The 24/3.5 DG DN can resolve to 100 MP with multi-shot and I expect it to be sharper than the 24-90 zoom.

However, Leica prime lenses do have a certain look when shot wide open and that’s up to you to decide what you like. For me, the Leica zooms are not as outstanding as their primes as far as offering the unique rendering. 

[Alan J]

Thanks, and thats what also concerns me!

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Alan J

[Jeffry Abt]

I have been delighted with 24-70 2.8 I I’m completely satisfied with it.

[mikepower]

Hi 

I just bought a second hand one in Austria through internet . I had the Sigma 24 - 70 2.8 . I will try to look for the differences this weekend  . The main one for the moment is the construction. It’s a nice metal lens . 
just for info there is a second hand one on sale on the www.mpb.com European website on sale for quite a good price .

Have a great day everyone 

 

[Jeffry Abt]

On 9/8/2021 at 2:25 PM, Alan J said:

Leica should prove …

Get a grip!  That is silly, I’m sure they do not feel compelled to prove anything of the sort.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Jeffry Abt

[2M6TTLs]

On 9/9/2021 at 5:32 AM, beewee said:

As far as sharpness goes, the Sigma i-series primes are very good. The 24/3.5 DG DN can resolve to 100 MP with multi-shot and I expect it to be sharper than the 24-90 zoom.

However, Leica prime lenses do have a certain look when shot wide open and that’s up to you to decide what you like. For me, the Leica zooms are not as outstanding as their primes as far as offering the unique rendering. 

I think Leica zooms have always been UNDERrated. The images made with them have often impressed me. There is a mental image that because they are zooms they must be inferior.

[Daniel C.1975]

Am 15.10.2021 um 07:40 schrieb 2M6TTLs:

I think Leica zooms have always been UNDERrated. The images made with them have often impressed me. There is a mental image that because they are zooms they must be inferior.

In principle I agree. And now comes the ‚but‘. I love the 24-90 and it is an extremely capable and sharp lens. In fact, despite maybe the aperture, no one really NEEDS more (all without including size, weight etc.) And with the comparison I‘ve made I would say the same is true for the 24-70.

But as it happened I‘ve taken two nearly similar landscape shots at my latest trip with the 24-90 @36mm and f8 and the summicron-sl 35mm @5.6. The 24-90 gives a perfectly fine picture - sharp, contrasty, colourful. You cannot ask for more …. until, yes until you put the summicron-sl shot directly side by side. The difference even on my 24mp SL2s is very visible. Surly not at every print size, but at larger ones for sure.

Still, the zoom is really, really good. The prime, in this case, is just better

I also believe with different motives the difference is of course less pronounced (just talking sharpness) or does not matter.

The 3.5 24 from Sigma is btw a lovely lens. Very sharp and it has a bit of a retro-feel to the colours. I cannot put my finger on it, but it is modern and not modern. A very good lens indeed.

Edited October 16, 2021 by Daniel C.1975

[Chris Nebard]

I am absolutely delighted by the colours and focus fall-off of the Leica 24-70. It may not be as special as the SL primes but it’s four or five traditional focal lengths in one lens with a maximum aperture of f2.8. And it performs outstandingly at all ranges and apertures. I think, also, that we often give too much importance to the definite trend for the 3-D look and separation, ultra shallow depth of field etc. It is important for some applications, of course it is, but front-to-back depth of field clarity, faithful colours and general “look” are, too, and the 24-70 has those things in spades. At the moment I’m more than happy with it - and the Sigma 45 (which as a “carry around” is brilliant). I’m definitely thinking of adding that little 24mm f3.5 Daniel speaks so highly of though, and possibly the new 90! 🤦🏼‍♂️😂

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, Chris Nebard said:

I’m definitely thinking of adding that little 24mm f3.5 Daniel speaks so highly of though, and possibly the new 90! 🤦🏼‍♂️😂

Do get the 24mm, a small little gem. Punches way above its price tag.

[Chris Nebard]

2 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Do get the 24mm, a small little gem. Punches way above its price tag.

Thanks Simone_DF,  I will 👍

[beewee]

On 10/14/2021 at 11:40 PM, 2M6TTLs said:

I think Leica zooms have always been UNDERrated. The images made with them have often impressed me. There is a mental image that because they are zooms they must be inferior.

I can’t speak for all Leica zoom lenses since I only have the 16-35 SVE. However, in regards to the SVE, I can say that at 24mm, the Sigma 24/3.5 DG DN has sharper corners at every aperture than the SVE and it’s 1/4 the weight and less than 1/11 the price. It’s not to say that the SVE is bad or inferior but it’s also not nearly as magical as what some people may make it out to be. It serves its purpose as a competent lens that cover a nice, useable range of focal lengths which is helpful in certain shooting situations such as in bad weather where changing lenses is not ideal. However, if someone does not need a zoom lens, there are much more cost effective and smaller/lighter lenses available that will perform just as well, if not better.

The SL APO Primes on the other hand are unmatched in optical performance. But they’re also bigger and their costs add up if you want to cover a wide range of focal lengths.

For my use cases, there are 3 categories I would lump my options into based on what I want to prioritize:

1) If size and weight is the primary concern, then the Sigma i-series primes offer one of the best bang for the buck/weight/size available natively on L-mount.
2) If flexibility and quickness to change focal lengths and/or shooting in inclement weather is the primary concern, then Leica SL zooms are the best options available, price not withstanding.
3) If absolute optical performance (uniform sharpness, resolution, micro contrast, etc…) is the primary concern, then nothing beats the SL APO primes.

Edited October 16, 2021 by beewee

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[MrFriendly]

On 9/8/2021 at 2:25 PM, Alan J said:

I'm trying to justify the 24-90 for my SL, but somewhat new to Leica and the lens lineup (Current & Past).

My initial thought was, could I put together a lens line up of primes that might be lighter in weight and cover the approximate range from 24-90?

You could go with 35mm APO Summicron-SL and APO 75mm Summicron-SL. Those two cover the range very nicely, and you end up with two very nice lenses.  The other alternative is 24/50/90.

[aksclix]

On 10/18/2021 at 12:45 AM, MrFriendly said:

You could go with 35mm APO Summicron-SL and APO 75mm Summicron-SL. Those two cover the range very nicely, and you end up with two very nice lenses.  The other alternative is 24/50/90.

And spend 2-3 times the amount? 🤔🤔

@alan J - there is no practical alternative to the 24-90.. 24-70 is introduced for that same purpose.. it is the only alternative IMO.. if Leica glass isn’t your only option, then you have several choices..