How long does it take Leica to produce a lens, in the old days

[Erato]

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"How long does it take Leica to produce a lens, in the old days"？？？

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[lucerne]

2 hours ago, Shu_downunder said:

That’s could be ignored for the few months when a lens is made. 
 

——

it seems the most unsure, or mysterious part is still when the glass is ground, coated and tested. Especially those ASPH elements. 

Shu_downunder.

I can't imagine how you could glean costs and contribution to profit from the questions and highly incomplete data you have collected from us .    Its ridiculous.  Are you planning to educate others with the bundle of random numbers from which you are constructing some story.

Will all that influence your buying decision or do you plan to start manufacturing. (if so.... Good Luck)

Can I suggest that you add to your general knowledge by reading the following article which should give you confidence to buy rather than invest!  Alternatively, you could write to the financial director and request his spreadsheet of manufacturing costs.   I'm sure you will get a very polite reply.   

https://www.ft.com/content/1e27b37c-21f7-11e8-8138-569c3d7ab0a7

As far as i can determine our forum is for lens and camera users.   Insider information is not publishable on the forum.  Speculative information is not deep or accurate enough.

Again,  Good luck and we hope to see the image results.  

[Shu_downunder]

2 hours ago, lucerne said:

Shu_downunder.

I can't imagine how you could glean costs and contribution to profit from the questions and highly incomplete data you have collected from us .    Its ridiculous.  Are you planning to educate others with the bundle of random numbers from which you are constructing some story.

Will all that influence your buying decision or do you plan to start manufacturing. (if so.... Good Luck)

Can I suggest that you add to your general knowledge by reading the following article which should give you confidence to buy rather than invest!  Alternatively, you could write to the financial director and request his spreadsheet of manufacturing costs.   I'm sure you will get a very polite reply.   

https://www.ft.com/content/1e27b37c-21f7-11e8-8138-569c3d7ab0a7

As far as i can determine our forum is for lens and camera users.   Insider information is not publishable on the forum.  Speculative information is not deep or accurate enough.

Again,  Good luck and we hope to see the image results.  

Lucerne,

Thanks for your link. 

No I’m not going to educate anyone with Leica’s manufacturing or costing details, nor am I going to manufacture any lens. 
 

All I wanted to determine is the accuracy of the following sentence in my essay:

 “It may take Leica a few months to produce a lens. “ 

But I was not sure I should use “months” or “weeks” or “days”.

Regards

Shu

[Erato]

Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy?

I'd be more than happy to believe you if you'd share your essay to us when its done and published.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Erato

[Danner]

23 hours ago, Erato said:

A missing puzzle -- months for stabilized each element before they're qualified(sophisticated QC inspections) and sent to assembly for Max Production!
I appreciated vintage lenses, and something is beyond hidden cost, or I should say it's priceless.

Can't remember exactly where, but I read recently that Leicas was buying lens blanks from Schott and Hoya, which I would assume are ready for cutting and grinding, etc.

[Erato]

1 minute ago, Danner said:

Can't remember exactly where, but I read recently that Leicas was buying lens blanks from Schott and Hoya, which I would assume are ready for cutting and grinding, etc.

There're some paradox between posted threads and the OP's header.

[pgk]

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A friend who designs lenses has told me that a high part of the cost can be in the assembly and testing/checking of components. So to give an example, each glass lens will be ground and polished and this will involve checks and final testing to ensure that it meets specification. Then doublets/triplets/whatever will be prepared and stuck together. Again this involves checks and painstaking QC depending on the tolerances and accuracy required. Then there is the assembly of the optics into the barrels and yet more checks and so on.

If you think about it it is obvious that two similarly specified lenses - say a 50/2 and a 50/2 APO - may not involve significantly costly additional parts, but one will require much tighter tolerance control, so the price differential probably reflects the greater cost of assembly and testing rather than anything else.

If you look online there are videos of lens making and assembly which might give some idea of just how painstaking an operation it can be.

Older lenses would have required more physical testing which took longer than is probably the case today. If you have a few hours to spare try reading 'Lens and prism making' by Twyman although to warn you, its not bedtime reading!

Edited April 16, 2021 by pgk

[Herr Barnack]

Quote

...All I wanted to determine is the accuracy of the following sentence in my essay:

 “It may take Leica a few months to produce a lens. “ 

But I was not sure I should use “months” or “weeks” or “days..."

@Shu_downunder On YouTube there are videos that show a part of the manufacturing process at Leica Wetzlar.  The ones I have watched depict a lens technician performing one or two tasks to a lens element with a tray of other lens elements waiting so there is some assembly line type work involved.  Other videos will show a lens technician working on just one lens at a time. 

The new APO 35mm Summicron M lens has ten lens elements; how long does it take to grind and polish each lens element to its finished and ready for assembly condition?  An hour?  A whole work day?  We who are on the outside looking in are merely guessing. 

Perhaps the best course of action is to email Leica Customer Relations, explain your project and ask who can give you accurate answers to your questions.  That may get you some accurate information for the essay you are writing.

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[Shu_downunder]

1 hour ago, Erato said:

Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy?

I'd be more than happy to believe you if you'd share your essay to us when its done and published.

Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy - what's this?

I can send you a link but you will need to use google translate as it's not in English.

[Shu_downunder]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

a high part of the cost can be in the assembly and testing/checking of components

This again proves things can be quite different from intuition.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Shu_downunder

[Erato]

21 minutes ago, Shu_downunder said:

Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy - what's this?

I can send you a link but you will need to use google translate as it's not in English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

[Shu_downunder]

Thanks everyone.

One reason I asked here was that I thought this (how long does it take Leica to produce a lens) is a knowledge, if not common sense, that experienced Leica users or enthusiasts would have. But it seems it isn't.

The other reason is that my essay is not about Leica's manufacture details, nor is it a profit and cost analysis. And this is just for a general expression that it's not easy for Leica to produce a lens.

I would stop here and indeed some of yours rigorous attitude is inspiring! Thanks.

 

[jankap]

On 4/15/2021 at 9:51 AM, Shu_downunder said:

I'm writing a short essay for my community regards Leica.

How long does it take Leica to produce a lens, before they have machine to grind glass?

Any info or source appreciated.

Youtube is your friend. Here is one from 1932: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfN3mx_ZQN8

[derleicaman]

7 hours ago, Danner said:

Can't remember exactly where, but I read recently that Leicas was buying lens blanks from Schott and Hoya, which I would assume are ready for cutting and grinding, etc.

You are absolutely correct, these have been the main suppliers of glass to Leica for many years. There have been others as well. Either Leica orders from a catalog from each company as the glass required, or they specify the formula they want used to make their lass.

Raw glass usually comes in two forms. Individual blanks that look like miniature hockey pucks, and glass cylinders. The cylinders are sawn into puck like form. The blanks are in the approximate size of the final element. Then each blank is progressively ground and polished into a finished lens element. I have been able to tour the Leica works many times over the years starting in the old plant in Wetzlar, Solms and the new factory in Leitz Park. I have even seen raw molten glass being poured in Wetzlar back in the days when they were still making some of their own glass. Even today on the tour, they will show the machines used for grinding and polishing. It used to be they would do 10-12 elements at a time, and now they do them singly. One person can attend to multiple machines as it usually takes many hours to complete each phase.

As others have said, there are several Youtube videos that show this process. If you like, you can join my next tour in Wetzlar and you can see it being done in person!

Edited April 16, 2021 by derleicaman

[Shu_downunder]

13 hours ago, Erato said:

"How long does it take Leica to produce a lens, in the old days"？？？

Yes, I’m very curious how hard would it be before they use machine grinding to a large extend. 

[derleicaman]

3 minutes ago, Shu_downunder said:

Yes, I’m very curious how hard would it be before they use machine grinding to a large extend. 

Leitz has always used machine grinding of lens elements. Perhaps before the advent of electricity? Before electricity they used water power. If you look at old pictures of the factory, they had a common drive shaft running down the middle of the workshop at ceiling height. Drive belts came off this to run the individual machines. Dangerous stuff, but that's the way they did things. With electricity, you could power each machine individually.

Here is a very poor image of the lens grinding done at Leitz Canada. You can see the bank of machines in the picture. There are two parts of the machine, and you can see the top part that looks like an upside down bowl. It goes on top of a convex component and the top cup shaped part moves on an eccentric arm while it rotates over the lens blanks. The worker monitors numerous machines as they are grinding, and periodically will check on their progress. An abrasive slurry is fed into the machine as it runs. The same thing is done today, except they are doing one lens at a time on multiple machines.

Here is a short video that shows how the Brits were making eyeglass lenses, but it is very similar to the way it was done at Leitz up until very recently. The ones at Leitz typically would hold a dozen or more lens blanks. After watching this, I think you'll have a better understanding of the concept.

 

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[Erato]

1 hour ago, Shu_downunder said:

Yes, I’m very curious how hard would it be before they use machine grinding to a large extend. 

Before we can look into the Max Production, there's numerous stage including prototyping, Lab experiment, Formula, elements, compounds against the context of the various types of glasses.

I wonder why you ignore the Abbe table, refraction, and dispersion characteristics? Each lens has a different level of challenges against properties that are almost identical to those glasses.

The more I learnd, the more humble I am.

[Shu_downunder]

27 minutes ago, Erato said:

Before we can look into the Max Production, there's numerous stage including prototyping, Lab experiment, Formula, elements, compounds against the context of the various types of glasses.

I wonder why you ignore the Abbe table, refraction, and dispersion characteristics? Each lens has a different level of challenges against properties that are almost identical to those glasses.

The more I learnd, the more humble I am.

You are right but my question regards to ‘producing’ not researching and developing a lens.

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Shu_downunder]

1 hour ago, derleicaman said:

Leitz has always used machine grinding of lens elements. Perhaps before the advent of electricity? Before electricity they used water power. If you look at old pictures of the factory, they had a common drive shaft running down the middle of the workshop at ceiling height. Drive belts came off this to run the individual machines. Dangerous stuff, but that's the way they did things. With electricity, you could power each machine individually.

Here is a very poor image of the lens grinding done at Leitz Canada. You can see the bank of machines in the picture. There are two parts of the machine, and you can see the top part that looks like an upside down bowl. It goes on top of a convex component and the top cup shaped part moves on an eccentric arm while it rotates over the lens blanks. The worker monitors numerous machines as they are grinding, and periodically will check on their progress. An abrasive slurry is fed into the machine as it runs. The same thing is done today, except they are doing one lens at a time on multiple machines.

Here is a short video that shows how the Brits were making eyeglass lenses, but it is very similar to the way it was done at Leitz up until very recently. The ones at Leitz typically would hold a dozen or more lens blanks. After watching this, I think you'll have a better understanding of the concept.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Thanks. That’s very educative. 

[Erato]

8 minutes ago, Shu_downunder said:

You are right but my question regards to ‘producing’ not researching and developing a lens.

 

"How long does it take Leica to produce a lens, in the old days"...are you sure that the question is 100% accurate?
Or "How long does it take Leica to produce a lens after R&D, in the old days" is more preciseness and it's much close to your motivation?