To old time users: M-A or M4?

[gabrielaszalos]

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I want to buy a second film body to my MP because it has been failing me over and over in the past. I would like to try a meterless camera. I shoot a lot indoors and I hope I won’t regret it but that’s another story. I am thinking to get a black M4 (which costs close to what a new M-A is, in good condition). 

M-A

Pros: Brand new, full warranty, better viewfinder (?)

Cons: Arguably not as reliable (built by different company in a time where film cameras and their reliability is not the main focus)

M4

Pros: Proven track record as a work horse. Better rewind, built by original Leitz company and is an icon. 

Cons: Very old. Will it still be serviceable in 10 years? Will parts be available? If serviced by a master technician will it outlast the M-A? Would come with 1 year warranty.

 

Can someone help me reach a good decision by sharing their experiences? I would love to hear from people who have a longer history of using M cameras.

I would also kindly ask you to not focus on debating my list of pros and cons, but instead share your own experience, even if you don’t agree.

Edited April 4, 2021 by gabrielaszalos

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[logan2z]

I have both an M-A and an M4.  In my experience,  the M-A is a very reliable camera.  Mine is 4 years old and has never given me any trouble.  I'm curious to hear what problems you've had with your MP,  how old it is, if you bought it new, etc.

With respect to the viewfinder, maybe I got lucky with my M4, but the one in my camera is clear and contrasty and I honestly don't notice much of a difference between it and the viewfinder in my M-A (other than the selection of framelines, of course).

I prefer the rewind knob of the M-A.  At first glance it might seem less convenient to use, but in practice it works just fine.  Frankly, I'm less confident in the longevity of the seemingly more delicate fold-out rewind crank of the M4 , although it also has worked just fine since I purchased the camera 3 years ago so my fears may be unfounded.

If it were my money and given the fact that you already own an MP, I'd probably buy a silver chrome M4 as my 'backup' film M.  It's nice to own a camera from the 'classic' era of Leica, and silver chrome will be significantly less expensive than a black chrome/black paint model.  If you must have black, then I'd probably lean towards a black chrome M-A.  It's the much newer camera, will have a longer warranty, and parts will likely be available for a longer time (although I don't know that parts for an M4 will become scarce any time soon).   For me personally, though, it just feels too much like the same camera as the MP (minus the meter), and I prefer a bit of variety.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[benqui]

I owned both (M-A and M4) but at the end I sold the M4 to buy a M3 and now I have my analog dream combi. Although the M-A is my "always in use" camera I never had any problems with it (same with the M4). Like always when you buy a Leica, it will be a decision from the heart and not the brain.

[gabrielaszalos]

Thank you Logan. That helps. 

1 minute ago, benqui said:

I owned both (M-A and M4) but at the end I sold the M4 to buy a M3 and now I have my analog dream combi. Although the M-A is my "always in use" camera I never had any problems with it (same with the M4). Like always when you buy a Leica, it will be a decision from the heart and not the brain.

Well, I have always been a fan of buying things new, however I’m open to second hand too, especially if the history of the specific camera is known to me. The M-A is a very desirable object, especially in black chrome. But, as Logan said, the expense might not be warranted for simply a backup camera. 

[andrew01]

I don’t think I would pay the black paint premium for an M4.  You could get a serviced chrome version in mint condition for half the price.

[gabrielaszalos]

3 minutes ago, andrew01 said:

I don’t think I would pay the black paint premium for an M4.  You could get a serviced chrome version in mint condition for half the price.

Yes, I totally agree with that feedback. You are right. Especially not for a secondary body. 

[a.noctilux]

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After using since 1980's, so many M4 always bought in second hand (as M4 not available new since 1975).

About a dozen of M4/M4-2/M4-P was used around the world in hard ways.

I accepted that every M4 I used had to be repaired/CLAnd every once a while, but now that I use more moderately my M,

not acceptable anymore.

 

I always have one M4 to be repaired but let it alone, and some other M4 to be CLAed.

 

So when the dream-ed M-A * came new in 2014, I bought two, and since those M-A never need to be repaired/CLAed.

I'm happy to be so "futuristic" in 2014, as I see some new M-A users have some troubles with the new M-A.

 

 * at that time, I didn't think the new film M possible, but had opportunity for some income to buy them without selling anything

Edited April 4, 2021 by a.noctilux

[Antban]

Still using my M-A for more than 4 years, and quite often. Operates very reliable, like Swiss watch) 

So, you just should decide whether you want black paint or not, cause there are black paint versions of M4 (if I’m not mistaken), and with M-A you only have to choose between silver and black chrome.

[a.noctilux]

I don't have to choose but if I had to M4/M-A, I think that NOW, each would be nice as I know them so well.

So follow your heart, Gabriel the best camera IS in your heart.

[gabrielaszalos]

Thank you both for the good advice. It’s hard to follow your heart when you brain is full of mess and reading hundreds of blogs and visiting dozens of websites. But talking to you all here helps. 

My current feeling would be to buy a chrome M4 as a backup to my MP. It’s a classic. Worth having for a Leica fan, I think. Now I just need to find a good one, from a trusted seller, here in Europe. I am open to recommendations. 

That is one of my main issues. I have a bit of a hard time trusting online sellers. I need to know the history of a camera that is sold to me. Perhaps that’s crazy but it helps. I don’t like the thought of a camera which was serviced by someone inexperienced, potentially creating more problems. But I guess I just discovered that there exists an L-seal based on which you can tell. Not sure how easy it would be to fake it though

Edited April 4, 2021 by gabrielaszalos

[gabrielaszalos]

17 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

I don't have to choose but if I had to M4/M-A, I think that NOW, each would be nice as I know them so well.

So follow your heart, Gabriel the best camera IS in your heart.

Dear Arnaud,

I wish my MP would be the camera in my heart. It broke so many times that it broke my heart along with it. I wish I never needed any backup  

Gabriel

Edited April 4, 2021 by gabrielaszalos

[a.noctilux]

Recently, in France, sad history with one new M-A buyer.

He took the plunge to buy one new M-A, to discover that the new one had some flaws in use.

M-A replaced rapidly with another one, another flaw, so to be replaced again.

At this moment, he still has strong believing for the third new M-A to come without flaw(s).

I really admire his determination ( to have one M-A ) and your determination to keep your MP after some troubles.

link (sorry in french) to the thread in summilux.net

Edited April 4, 2021 by a.noctilux

[Mute-on]

I have an early production MP, and both an M2 and M4 (happens to be BP, but that’s not relevant here). The MP has been very reliable, but feels slightly less well engineered compared with my M2. It’s a nuance rather than an absolute.
My M2 feels also slightly more refined than my M4. This could be because it is older, more worn in, actually better made, my first Leica, or because the M4 has a plastic advance lever tip. In any case, the M2 was made at what I perceive to be Leica’s peak of film camera manufacturing.
Unfortunately, the last 5 or so years have seen an anecdotal decline in quality of construction of film Leicas. This is perhaps unsurprising, given the consumption of resources that digital has inevitably attracted away from mechanical Leica film Ms over the last decade. 
The M2 is closer in feel to the MP than is the M4. However, I do appreciate the rapid load of the M4 when on the move. If there’s no rush, it makes no difference. 
Regardless, every Leica owner should have an M2 and a 35mm lens at least once .... preferably always. 
Good luck!

Edited April 4, 2021 by Mute-on

[Ouroboros]

If you're under 50, buy an M-A.  No sense in wasting the outlay! 

[ktmrider2]

I have owned M's continuously since 1975 and the M4 is one of my two favorites (other is M2).  I picked up a mint black chrome 50 anniversary body with working MR4 in Oct, 2020, from ClassicConnection for $3000 so just under 60% of the cost of an MA.  And I also own a chrome M2 so for less then the cost of an MA you could pick up two used film cameras.  Other than the viewfinder frame lines and film loading system, is the MA any different than the M2?  Tamarkin's website describes the MA as a modernized M2.  I would get an M4 (or even an M2) and use the extra money for ???.  Or get two film M cameras for less then the cost of an MA and used the extra money for $$$?   I may be wrong but I suspect major parts for the MA come from previous M film camera designs.  Honestly, is the shutter on the MA/MP different than the M3 or M2 or any film M except the M7, I doubt it.  

And perhaps someone could answer a question I have about the "new" viewfinder on the MA/MP.  Is it really a new viewfinder over all previous Leica film cameras or did Leica merely replace the small condenser lens they removed from the viewfinder of the M4-2 and subsequent models in an attempt to save money?  The removal of the small condenser lens in the M4-2, M4/P, M6, M6TTL and M7 is what caused the viewfinder flare.  You don't have that problem on the M3, M2 and original M4 (at least I have never heard of it).  And Leica repair technicians can put in a "MP" viewfinder upgrade in M6's for a couple hundred dollars.  Knowing Leica prices that is probably the cost of the installation of the small condenser lens and not a new viewfinder.

The only advantage I see in the MA is a warranty but I can buy several used M's in great condition for the $5300 or so that a new camera costs.  But then you are getting a new camera and that may be worth the money to you.  How you spend your money is up to you.  Heaven knows I could have purchased a house with the money I have spent on Leica's since 1975.  But it has been fun so good luck with your decision.

I would not worry about the age of M4.  As long as Leica technicians and parts are available, the cameras will go on forever.  Again, are the parts the same for MA and M4.  My guess is yes.  And I also purchased my first LTM Leica last fall, a 3f made in 1952 (the year I was born).  It seems to work just fine.

Edited April 4, 2021 by ktmrider2

[gabrielaszalos]

6 minutes ago, ktmrider2 said:

I have owned M's continuously since 1975 and the M4 is one of my two favorites (other is M2).  I picked up a mint black chrome 50 anniversary body with working MR4 in Oct, 2020, from ClassicConnection for $3000 so just under 60% of the cost of an MA.  And I also own a chrome M2 so for less then the cost of an MA you could pick up two used film cameras.  Other than the viewfinder frame lines and film loading system, is the MA any different than the M2?  Tamarkin's website describes the MA as a modernized M2.  I would get an M4 (or even an M2) and use the extra money for ???.  Or get two film M cameras for less then the cost of an MA and used the extra money for $$$?   I may be wrong but I suspect major parts for the MA come from previous M film camera designs.  Honestly, is the shutter on the MA/MP different than the M3 or M2 or any film M except the M7, I doubt it.  

And perhaps someone could answer a question I have about the "new" viewfinder on the MA/MP.  Is it really a new viewfinder over all previous Leica film cameras or did Leica merely replace the small condenser lens they removed from the viewfinder of the M4-2 and subsequent models in an attempt to save money?  The removal of the small condenser lens in the M4-2, M4/P, M6, M6TTL and M7 is what caused the viewfinder flare.  You don't have that problem on the M3, M2 and original M4 (at least I have never heard of it).  And Leica repair technicians can put in a "MP" viewfinder upgrade in M6's for a couple hundred dollars.  Knowing Leica prices that is probably the cost of the installation of the small condenser lens and not a new viewfinder.

The only advantage I see in the MA is a warranty but I can buy several used M's in great condition for the $5300 or so that a new camera costs.  But then you are getting a new camera and how you spend your money is up to you.

Thank you. Very solid advice. FWIW some seller (and repairmen) are willing to give a 1 year warranty on an M4 too, so the warranty is not a strong point. 

I am pretty sure I will be buying the M4

[a.noctilux]

Responding to ktmrider2,

- M-A is a new concept of old receipts with some refinements (if we need that)

- to appreciate the feeling M-A over older M, one must use M-A for a while

- subtle differences or ameliorations can not be "detected" at first use, but returning to former older M revealed the tricks for me

- some refinements as two screws fixing the eyelets inside ( in use I had troubles with the riveted eyelets on my multiple M4 with heavy lenses I used like Noctilux or 1.4/75), so many many M4 users had never the same troubles with eyelets

- very flat rear ISO comparing to M4 multifunction nice back (knowing color pos.neg./B&w is nice indeed !)

- accept Motor M or Leicavit M ,  if one uses those like me

- contrast of VF in dim light (less some flare/reflection on spot lights in M4's VF)

Edited April 4, 2021 by a.noctilux

[Paul Verrips]

I also have both the M-A and the M4 (and M7) in black.  

The M-A is my all time favourite camera  I bought my (2016) M-A in 2017 and i never had any problems using this beauty. My (1968) M4 is a refurbished and repainted one (Alan Starkie, Cameraworks-uk). I prefer the VF of the M-A, it is a bit clearer.

Although many people seems to prefer the rewind mechanism of the M4/M6/M7 and it rewinds a bit quicker, i prefer the aesthetics of the telescopic one on the M-A/MP/M3/M2/M1.

I think the M-A is very reliable and because it is about 40/50 years younger then the M4 and i like the clean look of the M-A.
And, the M-A is in a way a more unique camera.

The M-A weights 118 gram heavier.

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[gabrielaszalos]

The M-A is extremely tempting because of similar reasons to what Paul mentions. The M4 however is an icon, and is one of the cameras that made Leica its history, and is known to he a workhorse. It’s nice to have this icon in appreciation of what once was, but in use, I don’t know. 

It might help me decide if I could hold both in my hand and try out, but where I live (Romania) and given the little likelihood of travel with today’s world situation, the probability of me touching one of these cameras soon is low. 

p.s. We know for sure that whoever used their M4 did so most likely heavily, and for 40+ years after giving us feedback in the years 2000. However, it is very unlikely that any M-A was used as heavily as an M4, so their reliability isn’t really proven in my opinion (and very much quite the opposite). 

Edited April 4, 2021 by gabrielaszalos

[analog-digital]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb gabrielaszalos:

M-A

M4

Or a M4-P

Edited April 4, 2021 by analog-digital